Justifying the rape of women

“It is a shame that the common or garden rape of women is effective decriminalised in this country (and many others). “
Also - I’m not sure there is such a thing as a “ common or garden” rape

I’m not sure I understand the point you’re making. You suggest “men are happy to go on about how barbaric rape is, it can't be tolerated and the rapists need to be eradicated “ only in order to justify an attack. Maybe some men have done that …. and it is wrong.But the answer isn’t to shut down women …

Do you think we should shut up about the rapes on October 7th?

OK.. that's fine. Not sure why you keep @ me about it then

@AdamRyan I get that. I disagree with you though.

You said the silence is palpable.

From my position it isn't, the rapes are being discussed and the UN report was well publicised. I'm not sure what more you need to see to feel that it is being taken seriously.

@AdamRyan so were the events of October 7th. Didn't stop people celebrating and taking to the streets. Didn't stop the cries of 'resistance' when talking about rape or discrediting Jewish voices.

I don't really see your point. And there have been many voices missing even after the report was published.

@Dibilnik I agree.

@PeasfullPerson I don't know how you can post some of that tosh in all honesty. Did you not read the report?

"as if their bodies and inferred minds belong to someone other than themselve'"

It was headline news on the BBC the day it was published

The trouble is an awful lot of them are dead, because the rapes often also included being chopped to bits and/or burned alive. I honestly don't know what a "proportionate response" to that sort of thing is supposed to be, especially since Hamas has promised to keep repeating it until... well, river to sea etc.

It is really difficult to talk about any of this without appearing to minimize the suffering of one side or the other.

Thanks @AdamRyan that is what I mean and I am in no way wanting this to be kept quiet, downplayed or denied.

It’s such an emotive issue. I think it can be hard for people to examine why there is so much focus on the sexual abuse (over and above how grim it was) and how it is being used as a political tool to justify a disproportionate response.

It makes me feel as though the victims agency has once again been taken away from them, as if their bodies and inferred minds belong to someone other than themselves.

I hope that they are able to focus on their own healing, and one day maybe some of them will want to, and feel able to, speak for themself.

@AdamRyan I disagree with that sorry. I don't think they are continuously shown to justify the war. They are shown because Israel wants them back and western feminists and governments refused to believe what happened to them 'without evidence'

The UN has provided their report and the silence is palpable. Keeping their images in the public eye keeps their humanity in the public eye and means they won't be forgotten.

The same with Hersch. I see his mum every day talk about what he is going through, his likes and dislikes, she keeps him in the public eye so he won't be forgotten. Her pain is our pain and I hope that things are resolved quickly.

The reason I make that accusation is nothing to do with wanting the rapes of Israeli women "downplayed" and everything to do with being fed up of women's experiences being used by men to justify whatever ends they want.

In the UK rape is effectively decriminalised. Try to discuss ways to change that and men will shout you down about "innocent until proven guilty" and "better 100 guilty men go free than one innocent man is jailed".

Then when it comes to waging war men are happy to go on about how barbaric rape is, it can't be tolerated and the rapists need to be eradicated

It is rank hypocrisy and I also find it extremely disrespectful to the victims that their names and faces are continuously shown to justify the war. Like the author of that article says, it "ventriloquises" them.

@SomeCatFromJapan I agree with you

I dislike the interpretation that the sexual violence is being politicised. People who make that accusation would prefer that it was kept quiet, denied or downplayed.

Such an extreme, violent attack against civilians including the sexual assaults is the reason for the operation in Gaza. Reason, not "justification".

I think she means that she finds the politicisation of these women's rapes distasteful and not motivated by actual concern about rapes. Rather the rapes are cynically being used as justification for war.

I totally agree. It is a shame that the common or garden rape of women is effective decriminalised in this country (and many others). It would be nice if politicians put their money where their mouth is and refused to tolerate any rapes, instead of only getting interested when the rapes can be used to suit their political agenda.

This is a militarized version of sex exceptionalism – ‘the idea that sex and sexualities are inherently different from all other human activities and topics of study’. It is why we treat sexual offences as different and worse than other crimes, justifying intensely punitive responses. In the context of war, sexual violence allegations are used to bolster public support for hostility. Karen Engle notes that since the 1990s, ‘rape has come to be one of the most commonly invoked reasons for use of force’.

Sex exceptionalism facilitates Israeli exceptionalism, justifying Israel’s right to violently avenge attacks on Israeli women and girls without being limited by international law. Each reiteration that sexual violence by Hamas was ‘unprecedented in its cruelty’ encourages the world to accept the scenes of devastation in Gaza.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2024/01/16/bombing-gaza-isnt-fighting-sexual-violence/

@PeasfullPerson I don't understand your statement? Meaning we should strive to do worse somehow because it's the status quo? Surely any press is good press where rape of women is concerned?

Thanks for sharing this, it’s really insightful, and this is what I mean when I say I am angry about the way sexual abuse is being politicised by people who wouldn’t normally give a rats arse about it.

My IG is very light, but an art account posted three young women before and after the attacks

I cried too. It was so stark

I cried watching that. The silence was deafening, and yes, despicable.

thank you @Scirocco 🫂💔

@Silence1 you may only have come across Zaka in the context of October 7th, but trust me, every Israeli, Jewish or not, knows of their work from long before October 7th. Every time there is a terrorist attack, their gruesome job is one not one of us want to do. These volunteers collect every scrap of human matter, body parts, items soaked in blood, from the aftermath of terrorist attacks, as in Jewish belief, it is important to bury the whole person and is considered the final kindness that can be offered in death. They do this for Jews, non Jews, and the terrorists themselves.
They have long earned the respect of Israelis, as they have again and again stepped up in unbearable situations.

No I am not annoyed at the volunteers of zaka; the traumatic scenes they went into were beyond anything in scale of numbers and barbarity than had been seen in Israel in living memory. Were mistakes made? Doubtless. But if I am struggling to find the courage to go down south to bear witness 5 months after the attack, the last thing I am going to do is criticise the people who voluntarily went in to give the victims the final dignity, mere hours after. It would have broken me to see what they saw.

They couldn't care less about the 'failures' of Zaka and it's another stick to beat Israel with.

The faux bewilderment :/

“I am annoyed that someone in a trusted position ie first responder has handed on a plate, to those who want to use it that way, reasons for them to be doubted which happens to women all” Have you thought about what it must have been like for those first responders? Your “annoyance “ is a very strange reaction.

“Historically, women have not only been silenced or disbelieved about sexual violence. They have also been spoken for and instrumentalized, particularly in conflict situations.”
I think this is what some posters are doing when they focus on the “Failures” of Zaka and pretend they’re doing it out of concern for the victims. They are using the atrocities of October 7th as another reason to criticise the Israeli government.
Criticise the Israeli government for their continued bombardment of Gaza but don’t use the “failings” of the evidence gathering of atrocities as a pretext to attack the Israeli government. That’s a matter for the Israelis themselves to investigate and address at a later stage.

The UN seem to forget some women.

😮