Justifying the rape of women

@Limesodaagain I agree wholeheartedly

I thought you didn't want me @ you in anything?

Rape is a very emotive and distressing topic. It feels ironic to me that you are accusing others of trying to control the narrative when I think that’s what you’re doing.
I think the thread was originally meant to remind people that the historic injustices perpetrated by Israel can never be used to justify the terrible events of October 7th. It seems to me you’re trying to control the narrative by switching the discussion to say that the rapes are being used to justify the assault on Gaza. I’ve never said that. I want a ceasefire. I think starving and bombing innocent civilians is a terrible response to Hamas crimes.
I just don’t want those who suffered on October 7th to be forgotten - Their suffering has not ended - either for the hostages or for the families of victims. It’s not politicising the topic to want to keep them in our minds

I'm not saying the article is biased in any way, but this description of the authors is interesting.

This thread seems to have got unnecessarily complicated. Whether newspapers have distorted the truth, as they always do, or things have been misreported in the chaos, as they always are, or rapes and sexual assaults have happened in other places to other people by other people, as they do, unfortunately, does not change the barbaric ferocity and deliberate sadism of the attacks of 7 October, which combined rape with utter desecration of the human body and spirit.

For many people, Israel's response is disproportionate. But talking on here as though that's a given is, in my view, insensitive to those who are living under the threat of more October 7s.

@AdamRyan I believe your comments are relevant to the post and I to think the events of October 7th have been used as a way to shut down discussion about the Israeli response.

I do not believe you are lying, I believe that there are other people on here who wish to dishonestly control the narrative and that when conversations don’t go there way they resort to this type of name calling.

It appears once again that a discussion which is actually of great relevance is trying to be shut down. Some people are unable to understand that it is possible to both feel angry about the sexual violence that occurred, and also angry about the way that sexual violence has been used to justify further violence.

I am finding it difficult to know whether this is because people are genuinely so upset and worried that they can’t comprehend this, or whether they are intentionally and with care only for the suffering of Israelis, but not Palestinians, seeking to control the narrative.

Thanks for sharing articles and resources that support a not new belief, that rape is often politicised during war.

I plead with you to stop spreading lies, there is a family and children behind them

This is what I mean. Imagine the pain of losing your family to these atrocities and then having their circumstances of their death speculated on and used by the media. It's horrible.

Before anything else: I know massacre and vicious rapes occurred on Oct 7. I know one of the released hostages met some IDF young captive women in the tunnels some of whom found her a mother figure and confided that they had been sexually assaulted. It does not bear thinking about what may be happening to these still captive women.

I do not think rape is justified whoever carries out the raping - including American soldiers who raped French women in the thousands when they liberated France. Monstrous Russians raping their way into Germany. English army rapists too.

This below however relates to a story about events related to two young girls on Oct 7 that had ended up being inaccurately reported and interpreted.

Kibbutz Be’eri on New York Times Sexual Assault Story: “Not True”
https://theintercept.com/2024/03/04/nyt-october-7-sexual-violence-kibbutz-beeri/

Do you know what? Without even looking I've found 3 threads today about the October 7th rapes (including this one).

Nothing about the hostages more broadly. Nothing about the families of the IDF soldiers killed in the war.

From the article I posted:
In the context of war, sexual violence allegations are used to bolster public support for hostility. Karen Engle notes that since the 1990s, ‘rape has come to be one of the most commonly invoked reasons for use of force’.

The victims deserve better than being known for this.

I note you are now acknowledging people have posted awful things, but have not apologised for calling me a liar.

I am not watching footage of traumatised women.

What's the same - she's a woman who's been raped . The most fundamental thing in common in my opinion.

When I talk about the hostages I try not to (until very recently) post anything I wouldn't want to post about my own children. It felt like a betrayal.

People feel pushed though into saying these awful things not because they take some pleasure in it but because it feels like that is all there is left. Look, look at what happened in detail and how it has quickly been forgotten and misinterpreted. Those women have been forgotten.

I agree the vileness of events should be kept to this thread but I feel the exasperation in some people's posts. The upset and anguish.

I didn't say it was worse. I said bringing up the uk's inability to prosecute rapists and help women stay safe in the uk is not what this thread is about. And you know it. Watch the footage of Naama Levy and tell me what's the same?

I'm not saying there are degrees of rape, but there can be other aggravating circumstances, ie murder, torture, severe assault etc. And this has been the case here, and it has been widespread.

It is true stoma, not OK to call me a liar. I got a told about about nails in vaginas on a thread in here and said at the time I found it unnecessarily graphic and disrespectful.

I'm not sure why you are bringing up "pushing hostages families to release details. That is the opposite of what I'm doing. I think the victims and their families should be given whatever they need to process their trauma and it should be up to them if and when they talk about their experiences.

Rape is rape. Its not somehow different or worse when it's an act of war, in my opinion. I can't imagine why anyone would want to categorise rape into different severities

" I've seen posters on here give fairly graphic descriptions of the rapes as a way to shut down conversation about the Israeli government actions" (I think that's quite an offensive statement)

That's not true and this thread is specifically to address the rapes. I could understand your point if it was on an IDF thread (where I do believe there have been repeated descriptions of alleged rape by the IDF) I have been addressing the issues with the rapes/ gang rapes/ mutilations of women not being taken seriously and ignored by feminists in this country and others (particularly us and Australia)

Vaginal injuries won't be talked about as the victims are dead.
The raping of hostages are from statements by other released hostages.
Under the circumstances very difficult to 'prove'. I find it distasteful and disgraceful that people are pushing hostages families to release information like this with a prove it' mentality. Israel was not allowed to just protect its women. Hence the releasing of footage under pressure. Luckily Hamas had constant footage to but even that was not enough.

There have been recent articles post UN report still minimising the attacks and either veering towards 'boys will be boys' and even 'it wasn't directed by Hamas but Palestinian civilians' Journalists sewing the seeds to undermine what occurred.

The discussion about rape statistics are not linked to this discussion as these rapes were part of an act of war- the same as the rape of Ukrainian women by Russian soldiers.

I won't @ you as you requested which seems rather odd given your responding to posts on here.

I already answered that question. And if I thought people should "stop talking about it" I wouldn't be posting on the thread.

Ok - understood. I’m sorry if I misunderstood you from your username. I understand that some people will find it disrespectful to talk about this - but others feel that we should not be silent.
I completely agree that confidentiality and privacy of individuals should be respected. (Although Hamas live streaming made it difficult to safeguard victims’ privacy) It should be possible to talk about what happened while safeguarding anonymity.
With regard the hostages’ names - I believe the families and friends WANTED to publicise names and alert the world to the danger the hostages were in ( hence the posters etc) I don’t think it is for us to decide that that is “politicising” the situation.
With regard to your point “I’ve seen more coverage of the rape of the October 7th victims/the UN report/the BBC report than I have seen in relation to any other war. And certainly way more coverage than the usual coverage of rape“
Do you think we should stop talking about it?

I'm female, and have experienced sexual assault on multiple occasions. Not that it is relevant.

I've seen posters on here give fairly graphic descriptions of the rapes as a way to shut down conversation about the Israeli government actions.

And I've seen more coverage of the rape of the October 7th victims/the UN report/the BBC report than I have seen in relation to any other war. And certainly way more coverage than the usual coverage of rape (where you often get a "falsely accused" man, for balance).

It seems hypocritical to me. And as far as I know none of the victims have shared their stories. It's their trauma and I find a lot of the speculation (e.g. about pregnant hostages or vaginal injuries) extremely distasteful and disrespectful. It feels like an invasion of their privacy.

I posted the article because it chimed with what I think.

I find it disrespectful to the victims that their rapes are being held up as a way to justify the IDFs actions.” Who is doing that?
I’m not sure(partly because of your user name)if you’re male or female. Normally it would be irrelevant but if you are male you are doing quite a bit of mansplaining about what rape is and what is or isn't disrespectful to the victims.
( My “but” was an attempt to switch back to the Oct 7 atrocities rather than derail and talk about” common or garden” rape as you call it. )

"This is a terrible statistic, but....." kind of proves the point I was making.

Rape as an act of war in my mind is not more serious than rape as an act of power (as in most rapes).

Rape as an act of war in my mind is not more serious than any of the other atrocities being committed by both sides.

I find it disrespectful to the victims that their rapes are being held up as a way to justify the IDFs actions.

And I feel there are weird ownership/territorial connotations around the fact the victims have been raped as an act of war. "They raped our women, they deserve the worst punishment".

I'm a feminist so I recognise objectification of women when I see it, that's what is happening to the rape victims. Its just a different type of objectification to the usual. But it's still talking about women as objects or property.

This is a terrible statistic .
But the rapes and murders on October 7th were not just a terrible attack on women- they were part of a targeted assault on a country- an act of war. Rape used as a weapon to terrorise, humiliate and to provoke a response. (Hamas must have known their actions would have repercussions… ) It’s hard for me to see where the academic debate about the politicisation of rape fits into that .

I’m just not sure what you are suggesting. Rape is being used as a weapon of war ( always has been). Are you suggesting that it is “politicising” rape to say that Israel might feel unsafe and under threat while Hamas is still active?
Im genuinely not sure what point you are making with the article .

@EllaDisenchanted thank you and I can understand that.

No. I posted a link to an article that made some very insightful points about how the rapes have been politicised. You can choose to engage on that, or not, but its not fair or realistic to say I'm "shutting down women" or trying to prevent discussion of the rapes.

I mean that 98.4% of rapes in this country that don't result in a conviction. There is very little action on that, or even much interest. It is tolerated.