Justifying the rape of women

The hypocrisy!

Which post were you meaning and why was the timing wrong, please?

Where have I read this before? Which post are you talking about btw?

I hope this gets attention too. As it should do.

I find the timing of this post incredibly disrespectful.

*Every additional person - meant to add this is why it’s so distressing that the numbers keep on going up and up.

They cite the numbers killed as proof the Israeli response has been disproportionate.

As has been explained to you before this is not about a comparison of like for like numbers, it is about achieving the aims of the war while causing the least amount of harm possible.

Every additional person that has their life taken or changed beyond repair in this war is a tragedy, and that so many people have been unnecessarily killed is horrific.

The higher the number of unnecessary casualties and the higher the level of unnecessary destruction/withholding of aid etc, the more disproportionate the response is.

Indeed. I feel the same. Israeli and Palestinian lives have the same value to me. For some, there is a scale. I will never understand why.

That's what I find distressing on these threads. People repeatedly come on and announce that what's happening in Gaza is far worse than anything that happened on 7 October, citing numbers killed as proof. As though the tragic horrors on either side can be measured in those terms.

@EasternStandard this has always been my worry if Hamas remain in power in Gaza.

Is there a plan with how to deal with Hamas if there is a ceasefire?

I understand many might like another organisation in power but how is that achieved?

If Hamas continue and attack again can Israel put up enough defences to stop it? The retaliation from another attack could be even harsher and more volatile on a global level

In my book. an atrocity is an atrocity. To think otherwise is to reduce people to a statistic.
Shall we look at the number of dead in Gaza, compared to the number of dead on 07/10? Would you think this is acceptable? I don't.

Limesodaagain · Today 18:08
However Hamas bears an enormous responsibility for the current crisis in Gaza as they MUST have been fully aware that the consequence for their barbarity would be borne by innocent Gazan civilians

Yes, I agree, and I remember seeing that one of their own speakers referred to their martyrs as their weapon.

But Hamas will never have the advantage of the enormous killing capacity from weaponry, or the protection of the iron dome, which Israel has thanks to the USA.

Israel does not have to take the bait to the extent they are. They are acting mad and vengeful but not getting that far in eradicating Hamas. They may well as a result be causing the likelihood of more Hamas or equivalent in the future.

Both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of Hamas ( and both are victims of the extremism of Netanyahu’s government)

This seems a fair assessment in one way, but there has been a great power imbalance going back for a very long time with Palestinians being oppressed and harmed by Israel, and this is now being multiplied many times over.

As for Palestinians wanting to eradicate all Israelis, there are Israelis who want to do the same to Palestinians.

Ah, you were just having a dig at my morals because I made a factual statement. I wasn't comparing suffering, as it happens. I was comparing the relative scale of the atrocity based on population.

My previous post explained what I meant. Comparing suffering is, in my view, morally wrong.
If you lost a loved one and I lost two on the same day, would you accept that my suffering is greater than yours? Would you think that is morally acceptable to say this to you?

Mathematically, you are right. Morally, well...

I'd be genuinely interested in you expanding on what you mean, because it isn't clear to me.

I think you missed the point of my post, deliberately or not.
Mathematically, you are right. Morally, well...

Not everyone- just the ones who won’t allow signs saying “Hamas are terrorists “ on their march

Why have they asked people to justify Hamas' brutal rapes then?
Why assume people who are sympathetic to Gazans condone Hamas?

I think the point is that being competitive over whose atrocities were "worse" doesn't say much about whether or not the Israeli response is proportionate.

I think it's disproportionate and I think the ultimate failure of the "war on terror" shows that this response from Israel is ultimately doomed to fail.

Which is why I think its wholly inappropriate to bring the rapes into the conversation in the way they have been.

I know this is slightly off topic - but it seems if you talk about the Israeli victims some posters think it means you feel ordinary Palestinians are responsible- I don’t. I support all the people who want a ceasefire and I am horrified by the terrible situation in Gaza. However Hamas bears an enormous responsibility for the current crisis in Gaza as they MUST have been fully aware that the consequence for their barbarity would be borne by innocent Gazan civilians . It’s therefore ironic that people who condemn Hamas get attacked by pro Palestinian on the March . Both Israelis and Palestinians are victims of Hamas .( and both are victims of the extremism of Netanyahu’s government)

“No - you have misinterpreted the OP “Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
this means that we cannot use the prior suffering of Palestinians as justification for the brutal atrocities of October 7th.
I assume you agree with that position?”

I definitely agree with this position. “We cannot use the prior suffering of Palestinians as justification for the brutal atrocities of Oct 7”

The atrocities cannot be justified.

End of thread?

No - you have misinterpreted the OP “Something I keep coming back to.. for the people whose sympathies lie with the Palestinians and think an eye for an eye and that Hamas have been pushed to act the way they have, how do you justify the brutal rape of women by Hamas?
this means that we cannot use the prior suffering of Palestinians as justification for the brutal atrocities of October 7th.
I assume you agree with that position?

Do you honestly think that's a stretch then?

And the other day you accused me of justifying violence, which I clearly wasn’t as I had said a number of times there was no excuse for it! You don’t think that might have been a bit of a projection!