Justifying the rape of women

To those who wondered about the girl with the bloodied grey joggers. She is called Naama Levy and is 19 years old. More info about Naama is attached. Naama and the rest of the hostages remain in my thoughts.

To move this discussion away from what is happening today in Middle East, it might be valuable to look at other instances in the past, so not directly related to our "positions" taken in the conflict today (I'm generally pro-Israel). There is a lot written on the Nanjing Massacre, and with both sides claiming to minimize and maximize what happened.

The reality is that this happens in conflicts. We've seen it even in Western armies, the US in Vietnam being a notable example (and of course we have a long history too, I'm English).

Thank you Lavender.

I agree with the OP that women so often suffer at the hands of men during conflicts and that rape and volence against women is used as a method of warfare. It is not justifiable and it is not unique to this conflict or to Hamas. Sadly, however, there is a history of brutality against civilians, including women and children, in this region and the 7 October attack reminded me of the Zionist terrorist attack against Palestinians at Deir Yassin, as cited. Anyone with any humanity should consider all brutality against any civilians abhorrent, whatever the political or idealogical aim and whoever the perpetrator or the victim. I don't think this position should be contraversial in any way and I don't think seeing brutality against one group of civilians should make you blind to the brutality against another.

@converseandjeans I think the point they were making is that rape is an ugly side of war and its a global epidemic as part of the epidemic of violence against women. Its not about a particular group who set out because they want to rape women, its a problem with men and how they view women and that then plays out in the ugliest ways in any conflict. Her point is purely that it's not unique to hamas so why call it out in this instance but not in other conflicts in the same way.

I would imagine in part it's because of the level of reporting in this particular instance means people have had a more visual connection to it and are therefore feeling more personally affected. Plus its happening in real time rather than conflicts that have been ongoing for many many years or have happened in the past. I saw no justification for what happened in their post. And I think this is where things are getting misinterpreted as justification rather than discussion of global context.

I have had the distinct misfortune - or privilege - of having seen this particular video!

There are just ... moments where you find yourself inwardly screaming "oh, dear god - whom, as an atheist, I do not even believe in - please let him die already, because death is a great mercy at this point!

That was one of these moments!

And I am saying this as someone who ... I am forever going to maintain that I "cannot stay out" but also "cannot stay neutral" because I have deep trauma from this particular war!

The very first dead body I have ever seen was not what it was supposed to be: my "peacefully died in their sleep" grandparent (that DID happen, later ... I was so triggered that I went into a screaming fit). It was a 10-year-old Palestinian child who looked so perfectly peaceful except for that little bullet hole on his forehead (from the front) - and the entire back of his head was missing! (That'll be what so-called "dum-dum" ammunition does ... it's designed to inflict maximum damage by starting to spin within the target's body, maximising damage. It's PERFECTLY LEGAL to use this type of ammunition in war. My appeal is AGAINST THAT! THIS should not be perfectly legal!)

We are GOING TO HAVE TO find better ways of dealing with conflict than THAT!

I can never unhear the guttural moaning shrieks he made in his last minutes of life, throat blocked by his own mutilated flesh. Just one Palestinian child among the thousands to be tortured to death.

Having now read several articles from journalists that have viewed the raw Hamas footage, I cannot see any mention of a pregnant woman having her baby cut out. Something like this would have reported more widespread surely?

@she77 so why the link to that article?

No, I have very clearly said I hope no one is justifying the rape of women!

@she77 so are you justifying Hamas raping women based on the behaviour of Israeli forces in the 1940s?

I would hope no one is justifying the rape of women. I think we recognise that terrorists commit horrendous acts. Sadly, brutal violence, including volence against women and sexual violence, has a long history in this region's warfare and elsewhere but I don't think we should pretend it is a method unique to Islamist terrorists or Hamas. It has reminded me of the reporting of the Deir Yassin massacre, commited by members of Zionist terrorist groups against Palestinians in 1948:

"Many young schoolgirls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also molested. One story is current concerning a case in which a young girl was literally torn in two. Many infants were also butchered and killed. I also saw one old woman who gave her age as one hundred and four who had been severely beaten about the head with rifle butts. Women had bracelets torn from their arms and rings from their fingers and parts of some of the women's ears were severed in order to remove earrings."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

I keep thinking of her too

Disclaimer: don't read if you are sensitive to violent descriptions

I know I probably should get a life but this comment has been playing on me a lot today. Do you actually know how people are dying in Gaza? They are dying horrifically too. There was a boy, his whole face blown off, his lower body blown off and he was alive. I don't think I'll ever get that image out of my head. He was alive and they don't have proper medical supplies to treat him. Proper pain killers, anaesthetics, they are using vinegar on wounds and this young boy was alive with half of his body and his face gone. Gazans aren't dying like boom gone. They are dying from having limbs blown off then slowly bleeding to death alone under rubble. They are dying from being burnt alive.

I understand that Hamas inflicted horrific injuries on people and it absolutely isn't a competition but this comment made me think, do you know? Do you what is happening in Gaza? Just how horrifically people, men, women and children are dying? In a lot of cases it isn't clean and it isn't quick. Like I said I know I need to get a life but I keep thinking about that comment and thinking about the boy without his mum with no face and no lower body who was still alive and the people who think that this is somehow a preferreble way to die.

7 October is a whole new ballgame. Given that Hamas have been fucking over the Gazans for 17 years, why not unite against a common enemy?

I understand my own moral boundaries and refuse to accept that Z=X just because someone else thinks it does

Oh cool. Me to.

I understand my own moral boundaries and refuse to accept that Z=X just because someone else thinks it does.

Do you understand the concepts of war, collateral damage, terrorism and human shields

Do you understand the concept of hypocrisy ?

Well, there's a revenge attack, and then there's 7 October. For me, that crosses a very important line.

This is a sick joke? Hypothetically imagining yourself and your dc being tortured by Israel, then claiming you'd disown anyone celebrating a revenge attack? Of course you would! 🙄 Because when you've been tortured, seen your kids dragged away from your home in the night, don't know what has happened to them for 3 months, then get refused a permit to visit them, you aren't going to be the voice of reason. Do you think anyone Westerner (who hasn't suffered nearly as much) wishes good on anyone who has abused/murdered their child? No, they say they want them to rot in hell 99% of the time.

Do you understand the concepts of war, collateral damage, terrorism and human shields?

Ah ! Reading on my phone is like doing keyhole surgery 😊 Still, the lack of a direct connection doesn't diminish my horror and empathy. X

BTW, if you're referring to the 7 Oct attacks here... do you understand what "collateral damage" means?

Can you explain why you keep insisting on minimising what happened? I'm just a bit baffled

Palestinian civilians who are killed have been referred to as “collateral damage” so it’s probably a reference to that.
Where it came from originally I don’t know. I assume the Israeli government.

50 hostages have been killed by the air strike is being known today