Justifying the rape of women

www.instagram.com/p/C48HoP1NgxA/?igsh=OHV1aWUzMjU4NnNn

From Jerusalem post.

Yes, I too felt surprised by Hamas doing investigating and admitting it was an exaggeration.

It is so wrong the woman exaggerated and lied, as now no Palestinian woman will easily be believed.

I thought the Canadian doctor was credible, and also the reports of Palestinian women in detention that came out in February.

@stomachamelon I'm out at the moment with limited signal, but if you ask on the sexual violence against Palestinian women thread, they might be able to provide some links. Verification of emerging accounts from a conflict zone is difficult, as it is from other disaster areas. And it's made even harder when people are dishonest or exaggerate.

I'm still waiting to read the Al Jazeera retraction when/if it comes, and an explanation of why they published only to silently retract. I suspect, like all media, they won't publicise their retraction that much... I also find it interesting that there has already been a reported investigation by Hamas, that there has then been a publicising of that reported investigation's conclusion in relation to the woman (when it probably would have been strategically sensible to hide that - I of course don't think they should have hidden findings, but this is an organisation that engages in terrorism so I don't think telling a fib would necessarily register on their consciences), and that this is the Hamas-originating investigation which is suddenly credible when others have been dismissed. It's all a bit convoluted. And in the middle of it, women are suffering.

@Scirocco that's what I found.
Perhaps you could link to other accounts that have been verified?

I'm using critical appraisal skills, while also acknowledging that we are standing safely on the outside of a horrible situation we can't possibly grasp.

I'm fed up of being judged and ridiculed on here for being honest, so I'll step out. It strikes me as utterly tasteless to speculate on events anyway, although I understand that's what some people like to do.

@InvisibleDuck thanks, yes, the Arabic does say roughly that - that the woman in their interview exaggerated the account given.

Other accounts have been coming out too, of sexual violence against Palestinian women, so there are still concerns, however, along with the interview with a Canadian doctor above. Hopefully there can be more investigation into these disturbing reports.

@Scirocco This looks like the tweet mentioned - https://twitter.com/abuhilalah/status/1771996521312973088 I don't speak Arabic but auto-translate seems to be giving me roughly what was reported.

I hope very much that nobody else has been raped too, and that anyone who is responsible for those kinds of crimes against women on either side of the conflict is brought to justice.

@InvisibleDuck I hope that it turns out nobody has been raped or assaulted - I'd much rather it turn out to have been incorrect reporting than sexual violence. Do you have a link to the reported tweet? I had a quick look but couldn't see it myself?

This article may be of interest. About Jamila Al-Hessi.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-793560

"Al Jazeera columnist and former director Yasser Abuhilalah also tweeted, admitting that “It was revealed through Hamas investigations that the story of the rape of women in Al-Shifaa hospital was fabricated… The woman who spoke about rape justified her exaggeration and incorrect talk by saying that the goal was to arouse the nation’s fervor and brotherhood,”"

I'm not denying that horrible things are happening.
Sound like you are to be honest

I find your comment comparing women's testimony's really distasteful and pretty racist

Have you seen or heard the first-hand and eyewitness accounts emerging? If so, what about those isn't believable enough?

I hesitate to comment, because who knows how I would behave and speak in such horrific circumstances... but the YouTube interview that EasterIssland has shared to accompany the article in question... just doesn't quite sound right to me. She sounds so confident and articulate, and as though she is following a script that ticks all the boxes for key messages. Maybe it's a cultural difference that I don't understand, but (say) the Nova festival survivors' testimonies were very different. They were in shock. They were articulate, but often speechless. Their focus was on the horror of the immediate experience, not making angry accusations about what should or shouldn't be happening. I think one of them made a remark in passing about the army/police not coming to their rescue, but it was hard to interpret the feeling behind it.

I'm not denying that horrible things are happening. I just don't have a clear picture of what they are.

I haven't said you're racist.
Have you seen or heard the first-hand and eyewitness accounts emerging? If so, what about those isn't believable enough?
Some of translated accounts will be dependent upon the quality of translation and that dome words/phrases don't translate directly, but the original versions of those are pretty raw and traumatised too, in my opinion.

What made me believe the Israeli accounts of 7 Oct (apart from general media coverage) was the rawness of personal testimonies, their obvious trauma, and the fact that individual narratives overlapped to build up a coherent picture.

The writing style of something can obviously begin to look very much like propaganda, I'm sorry that you dismiss this as just me being racist.

This is the doctor reporting. I find her credible:

Dr. Aliya Aziz Khan is a Professor of Medicine at McMaster University. She is the Director of the Calcium Disorders Clinic and the Fellowship in Metabolic Bone Disease at McMaster University. She graduated from the University of Ottawa Medical School with Honors and completed postgraduate training at the University of Toronto. She has published over 200 scientific papers and numerous books on osteoporosis and parathyroid disease.

Dr. Khan has been recognized by numerous national and international awards including the Queen’s Diamond Jubilee Medal for excellence in clinical care, research and teaching as well as the International Hypoparathyroidism Award, the International Osteoporosis Foundation award for publishing excellence and recognized by Osteoporosis Canada for outstanding contributions to research and education. She was recognized as being in the top 0.1% of the world experts in hyperparathyroidism by Expertscape.

UN said it in its report regarding rapes in 7-10 and Palestine. That they can’t investigate much further regarding the Palestinian rapes because Israel is not willing to cooperate and let them investigate

Talking about sources...

apple.news/AG753RZj4R7mWtvQ3cQ9Qnw

There will be a difference between the truth emerging over time regarding the possible rapes of Palestinian women and those that happened to Israeli women 0ct 7. There will be no forensic examination of bodies as no one will be allowed to carry this out. The camera equipment vans at Al Shifa were destroyed and reporters arrested. Hundreds have been killed.

It isn’t odd when you remember this will be on people’s “threads I’m on” feed. They will not even necessarily know about the other thread. I did not except for what you’ve said here.

Even so, this thread is about the “rape of women”, not “ rape of Israeli women” ( which would be strange). The arguments against anything justifying rape are important whoever is doing the raping and justifying it.

If these reports were about British, or US or Israeli women, would your primary concern still be the writing style of one article, or would your starting point be to believe women? If there's a difference in how you would react to women reporting sexual assault and rape, why is that?

These are emerging reports, so surely, as with other reports made by other groups of women in the past, the starting point should be belief, support and concern, followed by a rigorous investigation in order to determine what exactly has happened or can be proven to have happened, and in order to bring perpetrators to justice. Shouldn't it? Shame we can't even get the first step started.

I might be wrong but I believe the first link i posted is referring to this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3mN1SRUx0R8

But the language used in the article I'm commenting on is so melodramatic and inflammatory it would be comical if the subject-matter weren't so awful. This is what makes me wary of propaganda.

I don’t condemn those that don’t condemn immediately. I condemn those that tell me “some rapes are worse than others” or that “rapes are part of war and because of that it’s a shame but it happens” and also those that deny rapes despite there are several organisations that are reporting them.

You're hardly going to get RCTs on this sort of thing. Emerging first-hand accounts, eyewitness accounts, etc were considered sufficient quality for compassion and concern when the victims were not Palestinian. It says a lot when suddenly these accounts aren't good enough for even a sentence or two of compassion or concern from many sources.

@EasterIssland Yes, of course it works both ways. War is fought partly with misinformation, probably nowadays more than ever.

@Scirocco I did reply to EasterIssland and thought the conversation was ongoing.

The bit I was responding to when quoting you was your first paragraph:
@Dibilnikthere are more reports than one person's testimony, as can be seen emerging across social media and Middle East news sources. Some have been posted on this board already.

And no, I am not just referring to you in isolation. There is a general tendency to post obviously poor-quality reports and then condemn anyone who doesn't express outrage immediately.