Justifying the rape of women

Apologies I just read back over my post and I meant to say
I have no doubt these women were raped and sexually assaulted by Hamas but the problem is proving who did it. By that I mean what individuals

Christ almighty. This was not an assault in someone's bedroom after a few drinks where a jury can say oh well who can say what actually happened. This was a large scale assault with multiple witnesses and video footage.

I agree with your last sentence. Sorry I’ve seen too many lies coming out of Israel so I’d want someone independent to verify it. The information UN has to do this report has been provided by Israel directly. UN has not managed to contact the victims directly. (Point 55 of the pdf I’ve posted). They also say that some of the info that was first published (few rapes and related with the pregnant woman) they don’t believe it happened

Unfortunately this is what women the world over face when it comes to rape and sexual assault. It is so hard to prove and one of the main reasons only a tiny percentage of cases ever make it to court and a tiny percentage of those get a successful conviction.
I have no doubt these women were raped and sexually assaulted but the problem is proving who did it. I very much doubt Hamas terrorists are on the Israeli DNA database and without that vital piece of evidence denials will persist. So unfortunately the UNs report is as much as they can conclude at this stage. As women we do need to stand with all women who have been assaulted in this way, who did it should not be relevant they should be believed and supported

It's not just the UN report though, is it. You're casting doubt on that for whatever reason but there is plenty of other evidence - witness testimony, including some by victims themselves, and reported in various international media outlets, the evidence provided by Hamas itself in the form of video footage, etc. It seems that anything that has come out of Israel- a developed country with forensic teams and police investigators and all the other things that 21st century countries have - isn't good enough for you unless it has been independently verified by someone else.

And disappointing that people will use it as an excuse to disbelieve rape victims. Not that they need one generally.

i believe I’ve found it for anyone that might. E keen to read lt

https://www.un.org/sexualviolenceinconflict/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/report/mission-report-official-visit-of-the-office-of-the-srsg-svc-to-israel-and-the-occupied-west-bank-29-january-14-february-2024/20240304-Israel-oWB-CRSV-report.pdf

Exactly, I don’t feel the victims have been properly protected and we have to rely on information provided by a party who is not fully allowing independent investigation and refusing to cooperate on it.

I have no problem believing these grim little men would seize this opportunity to get their perverted power kicks. It’s incredibly disappointing that evidence wasn’t properly collected, whoever was responsible for coordinating this has let down the victims and their families.

Im talking about the UN report. Do you have a link to it so I can read it please

I remember when I believe her was first championed by Mumsnet, back in the early days of the feminist board.

Has anyone seen the report from UN? It’s linked In the Twitter I’ve posted above but only some of it , so keen to check it all as from the screenshots UN basically is saying we think there were rapes based on what Israel has told us but we’ve not managed to verify it by ourselves, also the pics that Israel has provided we can’t fully say whether there were rapes. Also Israel is not cooperating in further investigations to be done

All this info to me discards UNs opinion, I don’t reject there were rapes on that day. But I can’t take neither all the info UN has provided because it’s coming directly from Israel who is blocking any Independent investigation and at the same time is rejecting rapes that have happened on Palestinians.

Honestly I just don't have words for how this makes me feel. This is just such an awful thing to say. I think it says a lot about your biases tbh.

I have, and it’s clear that because the UN cannot go into Israel to independently investigate the rapes, that is why they could not ascribe them all to Hamas or state Hamas had deliberately weaponized rape. The UN doesn’t take any country, any party’s word on anything they always have to send in independent investigators on anything and everything.

Please see my post above of 17.33 ^

@EasterIssland
I don’t understand why Israel is not allowing human rights and UN officials into the country to investigate both the Oct 7th rapes and sexual violence by Hamas and the reports of sexual assaults of Palestinian women in Gaza, West Bank and their military prison system by IDF?

Surely that is a major cause of the delay to being able to report on the extent and number of these sexual crimes and only increasing the chances that the criminals will not be identified or brought to justice?

Latest from BICOM ;-

The UN yesterday released its official report on atrocities committed by Hamas in the course of the October 7th massacre. The report confirms widespread sexual assault during the attack, including proof of rape, rape of dead bodies, naked and bound women being shot at the scene of the Nova music festival, and genital mutilation of bodies.

Pramila Patten, the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict, also said that there was “clear and convincing information that sexual violence including rape, sexualised torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” of hostages being held in Gaza.

However, the UN failed to ascribe the widespread sexual violence to Hamas specifically, on the grounds that members of Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other Gazans participated in October 7th.

Israeli Foreign Minister Yisrael Katz called Israeli Ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan back to Jerusalem for consultations on an Israeli response to what he called an “attempt to silence the grave UN report about the acts of mass rape that were committed by Hamas and its helpers on October 7.”

Katz also accused UN Secretary General Guterres of “acting to soften the serious report that he himself ordered on the sexual offences of Hamas, trying to keep Hamas from being held responsible...”

My italics

Yes I know, I was last on the thread weeks ago. I come back and it looked to me that the conversation had moved on, as they do.

So I joined in on the current conversation on this thread, by replying to a recent post by SomeCatFromJapan to answer their following question about an event they and other posters had discussed.

Now I am being attacked left, right and centre by SomeCatFromJapan commenting on this topic when they initiated the whole topic in the first place by asking for evidence and then asking questions about it!!

If it is a derail, SomeCatFromJapan started and kept it going by asking for evidence on deaths of hostages by IDF.

This from the link is quite important to me

“The UN report also said there had been allegations of sexual violence against Palestinians in Israeli custody, including "unwanted touching of intimate areas" and "prolonged forced nudity" in detention settings, during house raids and at checkpoints after 7 October.
The report said that while no instances of rape against Palestinians were reported, conservative cultural norms could have impeded reporting of sexual assault.
Israel's foreign ministry rejected this part of the report.
"That is a derisive and deliberate Palestinian manoeuvre aimed at creating an intolerable equivalence between the horrific crimes that were committed, and continue to be committed, by Hamas and malicious and baseless claims made against Israel and Israelis," Mr Haiat said.
Mr Haiat also said Israel opposed a recommendation made in the report that the country co-operate with the UN's international Commission of Inquiry, which is trying to conduct an investigation into potential war crimes on all sides.”

With this that I’ve seen

“UN's Pramila Patten admits that all her information comes directly from the Israeli regime, and that it blocks UN agencies with an actual investigative mandate from doing independent investigations into their propaganda claims”

https://twitter.com/zei_squirrel/status/1764771314600952192

All this info to me discards UNs opinion, I don’t reject there were rapes on that day. But I can’t take neither all the info UN has provided because it’s coming directly from Israel who is blocking any Independent investigation and at the same time is rejecting rapes that have happened on Palestinians.

I cut and pasted part of it for you, for free. It’s not a paywall. It’s a subscription offer.

Anyway, why did you ask me what the tank fire at kibbutz Ber’ei has to do with mass rapes when you kicked off the whole topic by asking another poster for evidence of IDF shooting people to stop them being hostages. See below.

You then went back and forth discussing this for HOURS before I joined the thread and responded to the top post on this page of the thread.

You can’t blame me for a distraction you asked for hours before I even came onto the thread.

Asking the U.N. security council to convene to discuss sexual violence report.

Thank you for posting that. I think it's so important that what those women suffered doesn't get lost in all the noise, and all the lies and deliberate attempts to twist the truth.

Imagine coming out to bat for a terrorist organisation by undermining sexual violence.

It is being a paywall. It's the NYT, it's a paywalled news service.
Why ask me that question, I'm not the one on the thread hellbent on undermining and distraction.

@BabaBarrio it's literally the title of the thread despite efforts to derail.

It’s not behind a paywall. I read it for free. The commander decided to sacrifice the lives of the hostages. How much more clear can it be? Here is what the commander told NYT happened:
”As the dusk approached, the SWAT commander and General Hiram began to argue. The SWAT commander thought more kidnappers might surrender. The general wanted the situation resolved by nightfall.
Minutes later, the militants launched a rocket-propelled grenade, according to the general and other witnesses who spoke to The Times.
“The negotiations are over,” General Hiram recalled telling the tank commander. “Break in, even at the cost of civilian casualties.”
The tank fired two light shells at the house.
Shrapnel from the second shell hit Mr. Dagan in the neck, severing an artery and killing him, his wife said.
During the melee, the kidnappers were also killed.
Only two of the 14 hostages — Ms. Dagan and Ms. Porat — survived.”

As for what it has to do with rape, I don’t know, I thought the thread had moved on because this event has been discussed on the past two pages of this thread. Perhaps I should be asking you that question?