How effective is Israeli bombing, anyway?

TW - some detail of Hamas footage.

I'm one of the people who will never believe what Israel post unless it is verified. We know that Israel doctors/edits and fabricates footage. I've seen it myself - human rights organizations were constantly getting harassed, lies told and 'evidence' produced to prove they are 'antisemitic'.

What verification would satisfy you? Much of Hamas footage is on Twitter (or even worse on Telegram), including a terrorist trying to hack a body to pieces with a garden implement, decapitated bodies, a body on fire. Do you want go and have a look? Livestreamed on the day.

How much testimony from witnesses will satisfy you or will you only accept it if it's not from Israelis? Those doing autopsies are being aided from people outside Israel, is that acceptable to you?

I think the sad thing about all this, is regardless of the numbers being exactly right or wrong as some people are debating on here, so many voices are saying this is somehow "justified" towards Gaza, when we can see the evidence daily on the news, social media etc that the mostly innocent 2.2m population is being starved, not allowed safe passage out, refused medicine and water and very clearly their buildings are being flattened to the ground not to mention the killing of so many innocents and whole families that has already way surpassed in great number the awful killings by Hamas, (which obviously were awful too).

This is before you even count the number of innocent civilian Palestinians killed by IDF prior to this conflict, which also is off the scale in comparison to Israeli deaths, as confirmed by so many human rights organisations, united nations, horrific reports by amnesty etc etc. Writing it off as somehow "justified" is being complicit in war crimes IMO.

I'm one of the people who will never believe what Israel post unless it is verified. We know that Israel doctors/edits and fabricates footage. I've seen it myself - human rights organizations were constantly getting harassed, lies told and 'evidence' produced to prove they are 'antisemitic'.

Chris McGreal

In this time of war, the health ministry in Gaza has been given its own health warning.

Joe Biden has questioned the reliability of its reporting of the number of people killed and wounded during the Israeli assault on Gaza – because the health ministry is run by Hamas.

“I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed. I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war.” the US president said. “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using.”

On Thursday, the ministry said the Israeli bombing of Gaza had killed 7,028 Palestinians, including 2,913 children, in the nearly three weeks since Hamas killed about 1,400 Israelis and abducted more than 200 others in its cross-border attack.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations called on Biden to apologise for his “shocking and dehumanising” remarks.

[But] Luke Baker, a former Reuters bureau chief in Jerusalem, is among those calling on news organisations to show scepticism….

…Others say the ministry has a track record of reliable casualty figures and that it has fallen victim to the propaganda war as Israel seeks to minimise the consequences of its hundreds of bombing raids on Gaza.

In the past, the US state department’s annual human rights report indirectly relied on the same ministry’s casualty figures in quoting UN statistics drawn from Palestinian data.

Omar Shakir, the Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch, said he saw no evidence that the numbers were being manipulated.

They did it because so many people have been denying what happened. The same kind of mentality that denied what happened at Sandy Hook or 9/11.

Like us Israel would normally never show the bodies, it's considered disrespectful. They don't normally show the true aftermath of terrorist attacks.

Those helping with bodily recovery and doing the autopsies - which includes people from outside Israel because they don't have enough staff to cope - have confirmed the atrocities, including the beheadings.

I see people on here and other threads are still saying that 7000 people have not been murdered in Gaza and the number has been inflated

Document released purportedly containing names of Palestinians killedThe Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza has issued a 212-page document that it claims contains the names and ID numbers of more than 7,000 Palestinians killed.
It said the people listed were killed during Israel's bombardment of the enclave.
Earlier, Joe Biden and the Israeli military had questioned the casualty figures issued by authorities in Gaza.

@Surreyclaire there was ONE election and that was 17/18 years ago. Get your facts straight.

@ahtehnai

• The Doppler shifted sound heard is consistent with a JDAM munition, recorded multiple times in use during other campaigns abroad

Given JDAM is a kit that comes in various forms and gets bolted onto various munitions of various sizes I'm not sure the claim that it has got some form of unique signature has much if any credibility.

Perhaps Israel should hand back Palestine to the Palestinians, just a thought.

I think it's very sad that they actually had to have a screening for journalists and still some people won't believe them.

well having a screening of that nature, a sort of atrocity highlights reel, is a bit of an odd thing to do really.

I choose not to believe the bit about beheaded babies but that’s probably more for the sake of my sanity.

@mushti Thanks for starting this thread, it is interesting to hear things discussed from a military strategy perspective instead of just reactions to clickbait gore porn.

Are israeli supporters saying these videos are fake ?

Some loons do but not nearly as many as those who deny or are demanding proof of what happened on the 7th of October. Unfortunately I saw some of the Hamas footage which ended up on Twitter, actually on the day. Not the worst but what I saw was utterly horrific.

I'd like to think it's because people can't believe that anyone could do such terrible things but more often than not it's just the usual "Israel is lying". I think it's very sad that they actually had to have a screening for journalists and still some people won't believe them.

So I don't question the videos from Gaza because I find it abhorrent when people do it from the other side.

"Bronk said unguided bombs would normally be used in a more open area where targets are more dispersed, and the use wasn't indiscriminate, but if you're using them against targets in a built-up area, then it is almost by definition indiscriminate,"

Talking of unguided and indiscriminate,:

https://rocketalert.live/

Yep, I think what mushti doesn't realise is just how strong public sentiment is against the actions of the IDF. Nothing compared to "the usual" condemnation. I'd say that many sources that are usually pro-Israeli government have turned, even Biden isn't 100% behind them, the UN definitely not. The crazed yelling about how the UN won't be granted Visas etc. also just makes those government members sound even more deranged.

Nice try, Netanyahu is done. His wet dream of normalizing relations with Saudi gone. His strategy of minimizing the conflict and gradual land grab that no one notices is done. He has a lot to answer for re the Israeli public, including why the Israeli occupying forces allegedly took 6 hours to respond to Hamas’s attack.

there's a good reason Israeli govt want to control the narrative so they don't encounter any criticism.

I was reading an article yesterday about a website set up to target tons of Pro-palestine protesters and make them unemployable or prevented from entering educational courses because they are deemed "anti semitic", I was deeply shocked at what I read.

https://theintercept.com/2018/11/22/israel-boycott-canary-mission-blacklist/

It really breaks my heart seeing posters dismiss Palestinians casualties as just collateral damages, or Hamases fault . Yesterday , I saw video of a young girl celebrating her graduation with her family , she looked so happy and so young and full of dreams and aspirations, she was killed a long with her pregnant mother.

And There are thousands and thousands of similar stories , the framed pictures found under the rubbles tell a completely different narrative to the one Israel is pushing , pictures of newlyweds , parents attending their children’s graduations , grandparents with their grandchildren, family gatherings. Pictures found in any household.

its so unfair, it’s like nothing matters after the 6th of October , and we are supposed to look away and stay quiet, otherwise we’re antiemetic ? I know many Jewish people and I know that’s not what they believe in.

I know that Hamas put civilians in danger too, of course they do. I don't agree with your eye for an eye logic, though.
In this case, it has gone beyond defence and retaliation. The reasoning seems to be the government will get away with it, so why not.
Although on that note, for the first time in a long time, perhaps ever, public condemnation of the actions of the Israeli government is strong and increasing daily.

I said to myself I wouldn't engage with this poster following horrific previous posts.

However.

You mention thermonuclear weapons. The IDF being the bigger army. You do know Iran is nuclear capable too? They have said they won't stand back if a ground invasion goes ahead - you really, REALLY don't think there won't be a retaliation in kind if nuclear weapons are deployed?

The IDF is the bigger army against Palestine. Not against the rest of the Middle East.

Your sentiments really show a lack of understanding that such actions from the IDF put Israeli citizens in danger. Unlike yourself, the majority of posters don't want to see any civilians harmed.

All being said, I don't expect you to be anything but cold and display a "my dad is bigger and can beat up your dad" sort of attitude.

IDF has not been using only JDAMs per Business Insider:
https://news.yahoo.com/israeli-jets-devastate-gaza-air-220001276.html
”Israeli fighter aircraft have been bombing the Gaza Strip, often with precision-guided weapons such as Joint Direct Attack Munitions, but photos and videos posted by the Israeli Air Force suggest it's also using less accurate, unguided munitions, military analysts told Insider.

Unguided bombs have their uses, but in a densely packed area such as Gaza, there's potential for damage outside a target area and civilian casualties.
Last week [12 Oct], the Israeli Air Force posted photos on X, the social-media platform formerly known as Twitter, appearing to show a bomb being loaded onto an aircraft and a fighter jet already armed. In both of the photos, the munitions appeared to be unguided.”
”An Israeli Air Force video posted Monday [16 Oct] also seemed to show fighter jets armed with unguided bombs ahead of footage of airstrikes.”

“Michael Bohnert, an engineer and analyst at the Rand Corporation, said that in the images, there was no visible GPS-guided JDAM kit or laser-guided Paveway kit. "The bomb in this picture is unguided and likely highly inaccurate," he said.”

”Justin Bronk, a senior research fellow for airpower and military technology at the Royal United Services Institute think tank who's also a professor at the Royal Norwegian Air Force Academy, also identified the bomb as a 750-lb M117 dumb bomb.”

”Bronk said unguided bombs would normally be used in a more open area where targets are more dispersed, and the use wasn't indiscriminate, but if you're using them against targets in a built-up area, then it is almost by definition indiscriminate, particularly when using this older style of unguided bomb with a much higher drag design."

IDF hasn’t and isn’t doing precision bombing of Gaza.

I don’t see any evidence of IDF trying to minimise civilian casualties especially since after bombing norther Gaza, they told people to evacuate south and then immediately intensified their bombing of the South. There is more bombing going on in the south than the north because IDF is doing raids into north Gaza with ground troops and you wouldn’t want to bomb your own troops.

I think far more have been killed than the figures being reported indicate. Think the death toll is mostly being logged by bodies that get to a hospital or injured who die in a hospital. Similar to Afghanistan, many piles of rubble will simply become the cairns on the graves of those families dead under the remains of their homes.

12,000 tonnes is massive over a span of two weeks.

To compare the Blitz in WWII was ~24,000 tonnes dropped over 10 months (From October 7th, 1940, to June 6th, 1941,) on London.
“It is estimated that the Luftwaffe dropped around 24,000 tonnes of high explosives on London during The Blitz” https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/incredible-map-shows-bombs-were-17128000

Here’s the BBC on the Blitz
“by the end of the Blitz, around 30,000 Londoners would be left dead, with another 50,000 injured. Fortunately, millions of children, mothers, patients and pensioners had already been evacuated to the countryside.”

There is no evacuation for Gazans. There are no bomb shelters for Gazans. And they have endured half our “Blitz” in a fraction of the time.

The population is likely a lot less than the 2.3 million we started with. Deaths have started to tick upwards in the daily reports as is to be expected when denial of medical aid, including fuel to generate electricity for hospitals and petrol for ambulances to function, including denial of clean drinking water. The injured from last week are now starting to succumb to their wounds in much greater numbers. Deaths from dehydration and starvation are only a matter of weeks away. With denial of fuel for electricity- the sewage systems are not working- raw shit is perfect breeding ground for cholera which could quite literally kill thousands a day if it takes hold.

The International leaders are doing nothing meaningful to avert this.

Don't bother with her. I can't understand how @mnhq have not banned this poster