To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

But PP's were saying exactly that. Which is my point.

@ProvincialLady1 this was reported by sky 45 minutes ago
This is in the south. There are no safe spaces there. They have nowhere to go that is safe.

Gaza school sheltering thousands of people damaged in 'close proximity strike'A school run by a relief organisation in Gaza has been damaged in a "close proximity strike", the UN Palestinian refugee agency has said.
The facility in Rafah, a city in southern Gaza near the border with Egyptm has been sheltering 4,600 people, the UNRWA added.
In a post on X, it said it had "sustained severe collateral damage".
One person was killed and 44 were injured, including nine children, it said.

That’s a disgusting thing to say and totally unfounded. Where have they been proven to have lied about the death toll?

If I said that the IDF/Israeli government were cooking the books with how many dead civilians and children there were in the 7/10 attacks, everyone on this thread would have my head. And rightly so.

This is utterly vile conjecture.

We can’t know the real number
However,
hospitals are being bombed
ambulance workers are being bombed when they’re on their way to rescue someone from an air strike
journalists are banned from going in
no electricity or internet.
un has been banned
urnwa buildings are being bombed

I mean how are we going to know what is really happening In Palestine if Israel is banning people from going in that could report what really is happening.

Lets just take a breath a minute, and consider that if you believe that the IDF produces lies and propaganda, do you not also have to consider that Hamas are doing the same. How do we really know how many civilians and how many of those were children, and have been killed in Gaza? The truth will lie somewhere in between the reported and the reality. It doesn't make it any more palatable, but we have to be cautious.

I believe it is safer in the south, but bombing there as well is a terrible thing to do. I'm in despair about it all.

It wasn't Israeli government propaganda FFS. Babies WERE beheaded, nobody said all 40 were.

Erm, what? Many news channels and papers had reported “40 beheaded babies” after being told this by the IDF. I’ve attached the Metro front page, which would have been shown to every Londoner that day. The Sun had the same heading that day.

All reports of beheaded babies have since been retracted, with countless news websites reporting on this:
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/12/white-house-walks-back-bidens-claim-he-saw-children-beheaded-by-hamas

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/world/cnn-reporter-apologizes-for-defending-israeli-claims-that-hamas-beheaded-babies-/3019286

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html

I’m not trying to debate with you on this, but you tried to smear me as sharing racist, anti-Semitic propaganda, which is an extremely heavy accusation, which I take very seriously, so I have every right to defend myself and my post and explain the context behind what was written.

Palestinian suffering has absolutely been covered up and diluted, all I have to do is turn on the radio and I hear “Israeli elderly and children massacred by savages” and “The Palestinian side has been bombed, people have died as collateral damage, but don’t forget it’s Hamas’ fault, not Israel, they have a right to defend themselves.” Big differences between “massacred” and “died”, between “a country defending itself” and “savages”. The routine underplaying of Palestinian suffering and humanising of Israeli suffering is commonplace on much of the media, but especially right-wing US media. Good article on the matter:

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2023/10/25/western-media-failures-say-more-about-the-west-than-gaza

You can also look up British journalist Harry Fear speaking on the matter.

I don’t know why you’re trying to create equivalency between Hamas and the IDF, but if we must, both have published propaganda that they’ve been caught out with as lies.

The Israeli government’s propaganda against its own citizens has been well documented, and they’re actually quite open about it. Here is an article from Israeli newspaper, Haaretz:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/security-aviation/2023-03-22/ty-article-magazine/.premium/israeli-army-conducted-online-psy-op-against-israeli-public-during-gaza-war/00000186-f972-df90-a19e-f9fff22a0000

Plenty more where that came from if you look into it.

@ProvincialLady1

Civilians are going South as instructed - and being bombed there!!

The South is being bombed too. So evacuating one million people to sleep on the streets with no food, water or medicine is futile.

A law which says it’s ok to bomb thousands of innocent children would be a very flawed law indeed. However Israel’s actions are not legitimate. The UN, amongst many others, have pointed out that they are operating outside the law.

That is true. But there is a legitimate military objective (actually an imperative) to destroy Hamas' capabilities. It's vital for the civilian population to evacuate to the south to prevent more casualties. But I'm sadly convinced Hamas leadership won't allow that, any more than they will release their hostages.

The cruelty and scale are undeniable.

The scale (in terms of numbers affected) has well and truly been surpassed by the Israeli response however. And it’s a scale which is enlarging as we speak.

Same here

I don't know. Between "IDF lies" and Hamas being compared to an abused woman, I'm in disbelief. The attacks on October 7th are the worst thing I have seen within my lifetime. I suppose it could be compared to the Rwandan genocide and others. The scale and cruelty is something I'm still processing, and I'm not Jewish myself but I am just in absolute shock at the way it's being brushed away. And to have that on your doorstep..?! Unthinkable.

It’s awful to see the part you quote resurfacing again by a few.

I wonder if those posters have read what happened on October 7th

Of course. It's absolutely hideous and heartbreaking.

But calling them collateral damage in Israel's right to self-defence rather dehumanises these poor little children so people who spout that nonsense (including on mumsnet threads) should see the reality of what they support.

It wasn't Israeli government propaganda FFS. Babies WERE beheaded, nobody said all 40 were. I can't believe a) I am writing this b) it's still being debated like the exact number or mechanism is so important, when in fact the reality of what was done was even worse.

...lies like the 40 beheaded babies spread like wildfire and are attributed to Palestinians as a whole, covertly and overtly, whilst Palestinian suffering is often underplayed or covered up.

So the fact that the reality is as bad or worse makes this anti-Palestinian propaganda does it? Every single report states this was done by Hamas. And it should be reported, and remembered, and grieved for.

I completely reject the idea that Palestinian suffering is covered up, you can't be serious with that. And it's equally terrible. But your words about the disgraceful comment you shared uncritically are so disingenuous. "The IDF lied about 40 dead babies" means exactly that. And they haven't lied. They have tried very hard both to preserve the dignity of those who died and provide accurate reports, which is more than we can say about pretty much anything coming out of Hamas' mouthpieces at the moment.

There are an awful lot of people who don’t want the truth of situation to be shown, it doesn’t suit their agenda.

Oh right, I’m with you now. The “Israel are lying about 40 dead babies” is referencing Israeli government propaganda that said there were “40 beheaded babies” in the 7/10 attack, which was circulated in the media, even quoted by Joe Biden, before being proven to be false.

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/its-important-to-separate-the-facts-from-speculation-what-we-actually-know-about-the-viral-report-of-beheaded-babies-in-israel-12982329

Excerpt from the article:

He says: "They cut off heads… of children, of women."

And in another live broadcast, Zedek describes "40 babies at least were taken out on gurneys" - which is where the widely shared 40 figure comes from.
In an interview with Sky's Mark Austin on Tuesday evening, Israeli economy minister Nir Barkat echoed a similar claim: "We've seen just now... we've heard of 40 young boys. Some of them were burned alive. Some were beheaded. Some were shot in the head."

CBS News in the US said on Wednesday that Yossi Landau, head of operations at Zaka, Israel's volunteer civilian emergency response organisation, confirmed to them he had "personally seen" adults, children and babies beheaded.

But when asked directly whether "40 babies were beheaded", an IDF spokesman said children were killed - but that reports of beheadings were "unconfirmed".

—-

I assume you are UK-based, and so am I. Our media are not as biased as the US media is. People are angry that lies like the 40 beheaded babies spread like wildfire and are attributed to Palestinians as a whole, covertly and overtly, whilst Palestinian suffering is often underplayed or covered up. That is how I understood the caption.

That man who listened to a lot of right-wing talk radio in the US who then stabbed to death his 6 year old neighbour and stabbed his mum (luckily she survived) for being Muslim (despite being friends with them prior) because he thought he had to kill all Muslims to be safe, is proof of that dangerous bias.

as if there could be any doubt over the state of the children cowardly slaughtered by terrorists

or the children flattened by bombs sent remotely by people who don't even have to get close

I haven’t got a clue which account you’re talking about, this image and the caption/writing was shared with me by a friend exactly as you see it attached to my post.

Oh really, you don't have a clue what I'm talking about when it's right there with the image?

"The IDF lied about 40 dead babies"

And you talk about downplaying dead children?

Compounding cruelty on top of cruelty. No words.

Some people need to see the true horror of what's happening.

I think people using the photos of dead children to justify their propaganda despicable

have some respect

Firstly, I didn’t “ambush” anyone, I put a sensitive image marker on the photo.

Secondly, I haven’t got a clue which account you’re talking about, this image and the caption/writing was shared with me by a friend exactly as you see it attached to my post.

Thirdly, kids and adults writing their names on their body parts so that they can be easily identified is a very real thing happening in Gaza. Many people have struggled to identify their loved ones. Bodies have been piled up in the streets as there is no room in the morgues. People are doing this so that they can receive a proper burial.

https://nypost.com/2023/10/22/palestinian-parents-take-heartbreaking-step-of-writing-their-childrens-names-on-legs-to-id-them-if-killed/amp/

I’m sorry that you’re so affected by all this. I feel the exact same way. But please don’t jump on me and link me to racists or propagandists. That’s extremely unfair.

There are images from Gaza that will stay with me for a lifetime, just like the images from the holocaust and the images of the Tibetan monk who set himself on fire.

I will not censor myself and allow pro-Israeli government propagandists to continue to dehumanise the Palestinians and play down what 2,000 dead children looks like, and means.

I've been crying so much for the children of Gaza, not just the ones who have been killed but the ones traumatised or injured by bombs and crying for parents, grandparents or siblings who won't be coming back. My tears aren't going to help anyone. But it's the saddest thing imaginable and we don't have to imagine it, because we can see it happening.

And then I see this photo you've attached to ambush everyone with more distressing images to cope with, and lo and behold you are sharing a screenshot from an account that callously denies and disregards the events of just two weeks ago, where children were shot, burnt alive, raped, had fingers cut off, and indeed were beheaded.

For the love of God, can people stop consuming and sharing these revolting misinformation merchants. What is happening is unbearably tragic, but if you can't be responsible enough to stay away from hateful antisemites or racists propagandists of all stripes, at least don't post it on here.

Of course they have security concerns, how could they not, in light of the above?

I have to disagree with the second part of your sentence.

We humans are mostly relatively placid, simplistic creatures, that when given safety, comfort and basic rights and opportunities, will quite happily go along with the status quo.

Look at the U.K., for example. We are up to our eyeballs in taxes, many people are currently living under the stress of making ends meet financially, and our taxes seem to go into a pit that rarely benefit the common man, and yet we don’t riot, and we don’t form terrorist groups. Why? Because most of us have our basic needs met and there is a baseline of comfort and safety.

I know Palestinians in the U.K. whose families were attacked and ethnically cleansed during the Nakba. None of them are terrorists. They are all very successful, actually, and are doctors, dentists and successful entrepreneurs. They’re not currently trying to bomb Rishi Sunak for supporting the Israeli government in their name - why? Because they lead happy, successful lives and have comfort and opportunities.

Yes, it will likely not be perfect overnight, Palestine is in an utter state so it will take time to regenerate and recover from so many years of abject horror, but if you give people human rights and opportunities, things will absolutely change.