To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

Well, in that case it would depend whether you agree the objectives are/were justified and the actions necessary and proportional. But I don't think saying "civilian deaths are justified" is the right way to put it, personally, because the aim should always be to achieve the objectives while avoiding the killing of civilians as much as humanly possible. The thing is that we can never really calculate how many lives are saved, or made bearable, by defensive action. So in a sense there's another side of the scales we're not seeing which is to rid the world of an organisation that is perpetrating evil, and will continue to do that if allowed to. I don't think anyone is safer if terrorists are appeased or left to carry on their objectives, so I would say Israel have been left with no good options, and ultimately they have a duty to keep their own people safe. Whether their methods are effective or proportionate, I don't really have the expertise to say and I'm wary of being in any way dismissive about the cost in human lives.

So sorry @feralunderclass , you must be feeling devastated today. May they all rest in peace.

Can someone explain to me - are the Israeli hostages all in the tunnels underground in Gaza?

Hamas bad - unconditionally yes.

Hamas hiding behind civilians - apparently, but why is this a surprise? Gaza doesn't exactly have open spaces, caves, islands, mountain bases etc.

Basically the IDF only have a failed strategy - bomb/shell civilians, presumably in the hope that some hamas will be killed and the civilians will turn against hamas. That has failed multiple times and will fail again.

Orde Wingate (cf chindits) was the guy who worked out how to fight a guerilla war - the IDF just repeat what they did before in the hope that the outcome will change - the definition of insanity. In the meantime civilians die and hate festers.

@ProvincialLady1 my last reply, which you quoted, was in response to @WhileMyDishwasherGentlyWeeps stating: I do believe the killing of German civilians was justified in the course of WWII bombing because we and the other Allies were fighting against the Nazis. My point was really regarding us deciding if some civilian deaths are justified and others are not. Anyway, it's a digression from the actual thread so happy to leave that particular discussion alone.

It’s getting to the point where I can bear to turn the news in, just to see more bodies of children being dragged out of rubble.

@feralunderclass so sorry, I watched the news about this family fleeing from northern gaza at the start, never ever thought this could happen them too.

Red Cross have been able to send a team into Gaza incl surgical trauma medics

Plus water purification tablets for 50000 people

I think the point is that in a war, civilian casualties have to be minimised as much as possible. It's not that any are more or less justified as such, that sounds as if it's somehow OK to kill people (non-combatants), and clearly it's horrific and tragic when that happens. Their lives are of no less value just because just because of where they live or who their leaders are.

What Hamas are doing by deliberately embedding themselves in the civilian population is a despicable war crime. Because Hamas have to be removed, their days are numbered and I'm sure they know that, but they'd rather hide behind ordinary men women and children and maximise casualties in order to make martyrs of them.

They can't be allowed to continue to destroy the lives of their own people, any hopes for a future peace and a more prosperous and secure life for the Gazans, and to indoctrinate their own children to continue to try to commit genocidal atrocities against innocent civilians in Israel. There is no version of events where that can be tolerated.

Whilst we mourn the loss of innocent lives and everything around us seems so bleak, I wanted to share this image of a young boy from a refugee camp today in Gaza. His whole life has been shattered, displaced from his home, surrounded by bombing and strikes. I dread to think what unimaginable scenes he may have witnessed yet amongst all the horrors he finds comfort in his cat. His innocent smile. I found it to be an extremely powerful image of strength and resilience

Good balanced post. There are no big anti Hamas protests here in the UK because Palestinians and their supporters don't focus on this. And the Jewish communities in the UK, who would be most likely to protest, have acted with great dignity, and appreciate that the situation is very sensitive with deaths and chaos on both sides, and protests on the streets just whip up a lot of fear amongst the affected communities here. Glad that there seems to be action now against groups posting conflicting info on social media. This can only be a good thing.

I'm so sorry @feralunderclass. It's terrible. What a loss.

I'm so sorry for your losses @feralunderclass It's so heartbreaking, entire families just gone. I really am sorry ❤️

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope their souls are at peace with the angels now.

People are just people and the same the world over, whatever their ethnicity or religion. Vast majority of civilians just want to live an ordinary life with those they love with food, water, shelter, jobs, hobbies, education etc. Women and children the world over (and men) suffer because of the power/land hungry men in power the world over. The level of human suffering on both sides is desperately sad but also nothing new. Men in power will never change.

I am not sure that is 'the normal, universal view' though I accept it's common view.

I understand that in most wars civilian casualties/loss of life are inevitable.

I don't understand how we can justify one loss of life more than any other though, based solely on the country they live in/who their leaders are/which terrorists have taken up residence there/what propaganda they were exposed to while growing up and so on.

We cannot write lives off as more or less valuable just because we do or don't take the same view as those doing the attacking.

I used WW2 as an example, as many of us are familiar with it, but we could choose any war/battle. I am not saying that some of the attacks in WW2 were not justified, what I am saying is that no civilian death should be seen as 'more justified'. It's a dangerous slope when we look at it like that.

Yes, of course. That’s the normal, universal view.

It’s why people are against Nazis and in favour of liberal democracies fighting against Nazis.

I can’t work out whether you’re for or against the Allies’ attacks on Nazi Germany. Or for or against the American attacks on Imperial Japan, come to that.

@feralunderclass OMG how awful ((( I'm so sorry

Every time I see this the blame is always on Israel. So where is Hamas in all this? Israel is going after known terrorist targets - tunnel entrances, rocket launching sites, known Hamas operatives - so Hamas makes sure all of these are located in densely populated areas, sometimes close to schools and hospitals; they also prevent people from moving away, not allowing them to use bomb shelters and generally use Palestinians as a human shields. They have no respect for life, they teach children to be suicide bombers and generally are a medieval death cult. They are also constantly firing DIY rockets towards Israel, and these rockets sometimes fall down in Gaza - in fact, they probably create more damage in Gaza since Israel intercepts most of them over their side.

I would also like to point out that Hamas are running all the hospitals in Gaza, they are in charge of healthcare. I would not put it past them putting civilians in the way of harm deliberately.

Bombing will stop if Hamas releases all the hostages and gives up people responsible for 7th October attack. But they would much rather have dead children on both sides. Which is horrendous. But I haven't so far seen any anti-Hamas demonstrations anywhere. People are quick to say "not all Palestinians are Hamas" but even Palestinians abroad are not very vocal regarding overthrowing Hamas or calling them to release hostages.

But yes, poor kids. Both Israeli and Palestinian.

Very sorry to hear your news @feralunderclass.

So, essentially what you are saying is that it's ok to kill civilians in some wars/battles, but not others, based on whether you think the cause is valid or not?

Very sorry to hear this

All the bombing news overnight was about the US/Syrian stuff

Um, well, I don’t believe any civilian deaths caused by the Nazis (including the murder of 6m Jews) was justified, no. Because the regime that did this set out to do it because it was Nazi.

I do believe the killing of German civilians was justified in the course of WWII bombing because we and the other Allies were fighting against the Nazis.

Residential areas in Khan Younis were bombed overnight. 29 deaths from one family alone. They were friends of mine, we're very good to me, their dc were all British passport holders. All dead now 💔

My question is why do you think civilian deaths were more justified then than they are in any current situation? Do you feel that civilian deaths are more justified in some wars than others? How does that stance come about? Are there other wars where civilian casualties were also justified, and some where they weren't?

I am aware of the extent of the bombing in WW2, from both sides, and also bombing/attacks in other wars.