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Conflict in the Middle East

To be horrified re the 2000+ children killed in Gaza.

390 replies

SoShallINever · 24/10/2023 22:57

The news tonight was unbearable.
I am sickened that the West is not calling for a ceasefire or some restraint.
I found out today that Gaza is almost exactly the same size as the small Hebridean island of Jura. But whereas Jura has a few hundred residents, Gaza has 2.4 million packed in. You couldn't throw a stone into Gaza without it hitting someone, never mind a missile.
The children of Gaza are not terrorists and I wish Israel would stop.

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17
Maireas · 25/10/2023 10:42

TheFirie · 25/10/2023 10:41

Wrong . 1993, the Oslo Accords gave Gaza to the Palestinians.

Your basics are not really solid.

No, I'm not wrong. I just didn't add Oslo I and Oslo II.
My point is that some people seem to think that it's a very simple equation, with an easy solution. It isn't.

MarySmit · 25/10/2023 10:41

Coughingdodger I would welcome an unreserved apology for your anti-Semitic post. It's not too late to educate yourself.

Livelovebehappy · 25/10/2023 10:41

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100% agree with this.

EasternStandard · 25/10/2023 10:41

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 10:39

Another thread that's descended into nonsense. 2 pages of people being outraged that other people aren't sufficiently outraged about the Hamas attack on Israelis in order to stop the conversation on the point of the thread, which is the ongoing slaughter of children in Gaza.

I think we can take it at this stage that everyone agrees that the murders by Hamas were horrendous and shocking. Not everyone agrees that the murder of thousands of Gazans in retaliation is horrendous and shocking and therein lies a big problem.

It’s not nonsense. People’s hurt is not nonsense.

Posts that are that off should be questioned.

TheFirie · 25/10/2023 10:41

Maireas · 25/10/2023 10:34

Gaza was occupied by Egypt 1949-67.
They share a very large border.
Israel occupied it 1967-2005.
Hamas now have controlled it from 2005.
I think sometimes people don't understand the basics.
Feelings are running high, the death toll of innocents is rising, it's a humanitarian crisis. It seems to get worse every day.
However, repeating slogans or pieces of misinformation doesn't help.

Wrong . 1993, the Oslo Accords gave Gaza to the Palestinians.

Your basics are not really solid.

Toothyfruity · 25/10/2023 10:39

Another thread that's descended into nonsense. 2 pages of people being outraged that other people aren't sufficiently outraged about the Hamas attack on Israelis in order to stop the conversation on the point of the thread, which is the ongoing slaughter of children in Gaza.

I think we can take it at this stage that everyone agrees that the murders by Hamas were horrendous and shocking. Not everyone agrees that the murder of thousands of Gazans in retaliation is horrendous and shocking and therein lies a big problem.

Livelovebehappy · 25/10/2023 10:38

And the Isralian hostage yesterday who gave an interview when released. Haven't hamas still got this lady's husband? I would be very sceptical of anything said in this interview. I cant believe that these savages treated her well after what they've done to others since 7th October. Probably more likely they are using her as their mouthpiece with a threat of harm to her husband hanging over her.

Maireas · 25/10/2023 10:38

@Mummy2Sienna - there are a lot of women working for this - look up the organisation
"Women Wage Peace"
Inspirational.

Mummy2Sienna · 25/10/2023 10:36

yorknotes · 24/10/2023 23:21

@borris - I completely agree with you. I think women would find solutions or compromises whereas men seem unable to, usually because of ego

It was the women’s peace movement in Northern Ireland that played a key role in bringing about the Good Friday Agreement. Would that some of those brave, wise women were able to be involved in peace negotiations now

MarySmit · 25/10/2023 10:34

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EasternStandard · 25/10/2023 10:34

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:24

I never said I didn’t.

I find all murders of innocent children to be horrific. Including the horrific and disgusting behaviour going on in Gaza right now as we speak.

The horrific actions by Hamas on October 7th was not just on children. All those who suffered the extreme violence should be spoken about.

Maireas · 25/10/2023 10:34

Gaza was occupied by Egypt 1949-67.
They share a very large border.
Israel occupied it 1967-2005.
Hamas now have controlled it from 2005.
I think sometimes people don't understand the basics.
Feelings are running high, the death toll of innocents is rising, it's a humanitarian crisis. It seems to get worse every day.
However, repeating slogans or pieces of misinformation doesn't help.

Livelovebehappy · 25/10/2023 10:31

Worddance · 25/10/2023 08:18

It's not true. There are many options to behave in a more humane and less morally reprehensible way. Hamas won't be destroyed like this. It will be fed like this as a generation of Palestinians witness oppression followed by a genocide. I sympathise deeply with what happened in Israel and their position now but bombing children is not the answer. I don't think anyone has the right to behave like this in peace or war. Israel is playing into the hands of a wider agenda and the women and children of Gaza are paying for it with their blood.

Who armed Hamas? Technically it would be more helpful to bomb them if bombing is the answer.

The lack of humanitarian corridors, ceasefires and aid is an outrage as much as the initial massacre was an outrage.

You say there are many other options available to Israel, but then forgot to give them?

MarySmit · 25/10/2023 10:30

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TheFirie · 25/10/2023 10:29

Who stopped the negotiations? Who increased the colonies? Who has installed apartheid? Are you sure it is Hamas making peace impossible. It takes two to tango

bathrobeandpie · 25/10/2023 10:29

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:26

I meant that my comment about the woman hitting the man was not horrific.

As well you know.

I know no such thing.

I commented on what I read. Glad if it wasn't clear, but i have read enough support over the massacres of the 07th to know they exist.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:28

MarySmit · 25/10/2023 10:26

You literally said it was not horrific. You are an anti-Semite. You might as well own up to being a racist bigot, at this point. I see you.

Your posts are ridiculous.

Nowhere did I say that October 7 was not horrific. I said that my post about a woman hitting a man was not “horrific”.

All of the child murders are horrific. But Israel is continuing to murder and at a much higher and ongoing rate.

bathrobeandpie · 25/10/2023 10:27

TheFirie · 25/10/2023 10:24

Hamas is a terrorist group doing horrible things.
Palestinians are not Hamas.

Would you have justified bombarding NI every time the IRA planted a bomb?

I don't justify it, but I understand the reasoning behind.
I suppose I vaguely understand why Hamas started the war, they are against any negotiations and peaceful resolution.

If another country started to launch rockets at London, what would you expect would happen.

What is missing on everything I am reading are reasonable suggestions on how to stop the carnage, I don't think it's as simple as saying "Israel must stop bombing".

Weonlyhavealoanofit · 25/10/2023 10:27

Why am I feeling very pessimistic and genuinely fearful for the next generation?

I hate the divisiveness of this conflict, it is a human rights issue and it started years before the dreadful murders of the 6/7 October. Before that weekend, one population has been dispossessed of its lands, and moved either into miserably overcrowded ‘refugee camps’ or marooned into a ghetto [I don't believe that any other word is suitable] and subject to a 16 year blockade which has reduced a stateless population to utter misery, and without hope, and without any real support in the wider world. Who was posting about these things before the 6th October? The silence was deafening. International Law has been ignored at every turn and the world’s only super power gives unilaterally allegiance and arms to Israel. If one takes the words Israeli and Palestinian out of the equation and substitute them for Nation A and Nation B people are horrified at the sufferings of Nation B notwithstanding the history of racism perpetrated against Nation A. The USA even blocked a proposal that their be a ‘cessation of fighting’ at the UN. Where is our humanity?

The West through the British Mandate and through the machinations of the UN helped create Israel as a way of dealing with its guilt over centuries of Western anti semitism and the refugees created by Nazism, I think the dream of a nation where Jews could live free from racism and as a beacon to other nations has failed. How many of us as young people wanted to visit Israel and work in a kibbutz, I know I did, it was a very idealistic society but over time the idealism seems to have been replaced with a very violent and racist underbelly, and its racism is directed at Arabs, be they Christian or Muslim. Now it seems to be about a land grab where only people claiming Jewish ancestry have any rights. Yes it will tolerate Western holidaymakers especially of the evangelical Christian persuasion, but it will not tolerate any Arabs living on the land. Netanyahu and his present cabinet contain some truly appalling people, who are trying to destroy Israeli democracy. A political settlement is the only way peace will be established. It requires all the protagonists to negotiate. It requires compromise and a respect for international law. It requires political will, it will require the USA to demand certain things of Israel and I cant see that happening anytime soon.

We are heading to an abyss over the Middle East and the so called ‘Muslim world’. We have the Saudis and their genocidal war in Yemen, which should be a cause of immense public outrage, but as usual we are not bothered about this genocide. Paraphrasing Trump after the murder of Jamal Khasoggi, ‘we do too much business with these guys to do anything’. We have the Saudis and their hands on the distribution and price of oil. We have the Saudis and their policy of creating and funding extremism elsewhere in the world. Accepting Saudi money seems to lead to lower standards in public life. When violent oppressive regimes control the purse strings, people seem to lose sight of right and wrong, they compromise their beliefs they start to tolerate what should not be tolerated.

The states surrounding Israel: Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan cannot cope with any more refugees. They are poor nations and fractured societies where national unity is very fragile. We have the multiple disasters of the Bush/Blair wars in Iraq and Libya which have reduced these states to poverty and rampant sectarianism, we have the civil war raging in Syria and we have been trying for decades to isolate and destroy Iran. A nation were the West’s meddling in the 50s staged a coup and brought down a moderate and democratically elected government headed by Mosaddegh for the sole purpose of protecting British petroleum and US oil companies. His government was replaced by the murderous regime of the Shah which in turn helped create the extremism of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

We have a presidential election in the States being fought by lets face it 2 elderly man who are engaged in the fight for the ‘American soul’….where senators no longer represent the people because they have been bought and paid for by the sectional interests beloved of oligarchs and are, with 1 or 2 exceptions representatives of the fabulously rich, a large part of which is made up of the arms industry, pharmaceutical industry, banking, media and the technology industry.

Ukraine and Russia seem to be set for a long slow painful war that may last years, and China is always the sleeping giant, the West having embraced the philosophy of ‘globalisation’. A policy which made a new class of capitalist , ‘the oligarch’ , people who almost overnight are richer than nation states and wield immense and unfettered power. Globalisation has led to the deindustrialisation of the West and is now leading to a revival of right wing parties, who are opposed to non white immigration and very assertive about patriotism. India appears to be set on a course of extreme Hindu nationalism and is virulently anti Muslim, and Brazil home to the Amazon has a significant population still supportive of Bolsonaro and his environmental thuggery. AND looming over the entire planet is the disaster known as climate change, which will radically alter WHERE, HOW and IF the human race can live.

MarySmit · 25/10/2023 10:26

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:24

I never said I didn’t.

I find all murders of innocent children to be horrific. Including the horrific and disgusting behaviour going on in Gaza right now as we speak.

You literally said it was not horrific. You are an anti-Semite. You might as well own up to being a racist bigot, at this point. I see you.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:26

bathrobeandpie · 25/10/2023 10:08

It was not “horrific” however. That adjective is more appropriate for what’s going on right this minute in Gaza.

wow

It's beyond anything that anyone could have looked at the event of the 07th and explained it, justified it, excused it, or worst cheered it, but there you go, people did. That's what I meant when I said the hatred against Israel is a thing.

If that doesn't prove that there is no possible easy resolution and rockets being launched at another country was nothing but a declaration of war.

It's a tragedy, and it will only escalate. If someone is up for a Nobel Peace Prize and wants to solve that, they have all my support, who wants a war.

I meant that my comment about the woman hitting the man was not horrific.

As well you know.

JSMill · 25/10/2023 10:26

Queen Rania was interviewed on CNN and she pointed to the difference in language used about the deaths of Israeli and Palestinian children. Israeli children are slaughtered while Palestinian children are killed. I think someone upthread quoted Giles Coren who said something like if we are arguing over which way to kill a child is worse, all is lost. I want to cry but I'm too bloody angry.

Coughingdodger · 25/10/2023 10:24

EasternStandard · 25/10/2023 09:59

You don’t find what was just outlined in that post and other extreme acts of degradation and violence to be horrific?

Why not?

I never said I didn’t.

I find all murders of innocent children to be horrific. Including the horrific and disgusting behaviour going on in Gaza right now as we speak.

TheFirie · 25/10/2023 10:24

Hamas is a terrorist group doing horrible things.
Palestinians are not Hamas.

Would you have justified bombarding NI every time the IRA planted a bomb?

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