What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

@LemonyTicket

"I think carrying flags right now is very twattish!"

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Completely agree and just demonstrates division.

Some pro Pakestinisn protesters threatened to behead an Iranian dissident who is one of the protesters camping outside the Iranian embassy in London against the Iranian regime because they had an Israeli flag. So we have people who have had to flee their own country being terrorised because they are protesting against the regime that terrorised them in the first place.

Scenario A obviously.

But I wouldn't do either!

Sorry yes, I didn't mean YOU were being disingenuous, I just meant people saying this were.

Obviously if I went parading with an Israeli flag people wouldn't think I was supporting Israeli citizens and hostages; they would think I was supporting the bombs being fired at Gaza.

I think carrying flags right now is very twattish!

OK let's take two scenarios

A) I stand in Trafalgar Square with an Israeli flag - my views are that I don't support the Israeli Government's actions in Gaza but I am sympathising with Israel against the recent terrorist attack. But no one can see these views they can just see a flag.

B) I stand in Trafalgar Square with a Palestinian flag - my views are that I condemn the recent terrorist attack against Israel but I am sympathising with the Palestinian people against the bombings by the Israeli military attack. But no one can see these views they can just see a flag.

Now in which scenario am I most likely to be physically attacked?

Classic one here:

I decided to ask someone this question on Twitter. He had tweeted "they are trying to reframe 'Free Palestine' as racist" (unsure who 'they' are), but I asked him:

"Can you actually tell me in meaningful terms what you want Israel to actually do? Given then Palestinians are oppressed by their own government and have repeatedly refused to accept any peace process?"

His reply:

"Stay out of things you are clearly uninformed about. Israel is to blame for all this. So stop lying".

Which not only is NOT an answer of any sort, but it is also him - Darryl, from rural England, who's profile says he "hates the Torys" and "fights for human rights", telling me, who's an Iraqi Jew with a masters in middle eastern history to "stay out of things I am uninformed about". 👀😆

Sigh.

The British left need an intervention!

They're coming coming off absolutely crackers now

@LemonyTicket thanks for keeping up representation of what all this means for Jews. You must be exhausted with all the threads.

@LemonyTicket did you mean to quote me or @saffronsoup ? I fully agree with you. Although as a sidenote, I also wouldn't fly the Israeli flag out of fear of being attacked.

@Ididivfama
I appreciate that you don't think it's true, but it is.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CysbbWOsPKo/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

This is, according to some of the comments, from 2019 rather than from now. So before this current war began. That level of hatred is pretty intense. They want to kill Jews in the UK so not sure why you won't believe they want to get rid of Jews from the middle east. This is obviously just a few people in this video but there are plenty more videos out there.

It's scary to be Jewish. My kids have guards outside school. The past couple of weeks they've also had police outside. My kids are primary school aged and younger yet still not safe

I feel like this is really disingenuous. Two weeks ago, Hamas, government of Gaza, committed the worst acts of civilian terrorism I have ever seen in my life. They burned babies, they took go pro videos gloating and celebrating and they chanted Allahu Akbar and called for death to Jews.

Now people are joining parades with people, carrying the flags of this government, redefining this terrorism as "resistance", and standing shoulder to shoulder with the same calls of Allahu Akbar and calls for death to Jews.

It might be SOME people don't support Hamas' actions or wishes.

It might be MOST people don't.

But whilst they're all in one big parade it's hard for people to tell.

For this exact reason, I would not walk around right now with an Israeli flag. Not because I don't support Israel or the hostages, but because I wouldn't want anyone in Gaza or around the world to for a moment think I supported their babies dying.

Surely that's reasonable?

I mean, if we travelled back to WWII would people be flying the German flag and saying "Oh but we don't support the Nazis, just the German people?".

It feels a bit like total insensitive bollocks.

There were fireworks set off in London in celebration.

I’m sorry. That’s appalling.

There is no occupation in Gaza.

I hear it as either an anti semitic chant from people who don't believe Israel should exist or meaningless words from people who don't understand the history / reality and think Palestine is a victim regardless of the daily terrorist rockets against Israel

But they are oppressed and have had many, many casualties. The horrors that have happened to Israel in early October do not take away what has been happening to Palestinians for years and the atrocities that are continuing now. That keep on and on and on but the powerful Israeli government. Surely you can understand that is what most people see?

But I don’t actually think that’s true

In term of what's criminalized and what isn't, yes that's how democracy is supposed to work. It's a rollback of nothing because standpoint epistemology, which is the root of your belief system, is not what made saying words like that socially unacceptable in the first place.

Are you aware that many non-white people believe that even refusing to condemn Israel, let alone supporting its existence, is racist? Do you know that Israel is viewed as a racist white settler imperialist state and therefore even silence, even a failure to fully and unreservedly condemn it, is considered racism, in fact white supremacism?

Are Jews supposed to bow to that because they're all deemed to be white? Am I, because I'm fairly unarguably white? Or are we taking a global poll of 'non-white' people (assuming we manage to define them...) and only then can we decide if that is or is not racist. Do you see the problem here yet?

Well said. I think alot of these people are white saviors and deeply racist and as they see Jews as white don't see their own racism.

@Pollyputhekettleon

"I do not and will never accept that any minority group has the sole authority to define any word in our language"

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So on that basis the white majority in the UK could use any word to describe black citizens or Asian citizens so long as the white majority didn't feel it was unacceptable regardless of the views of their fellow Black or Asian citizens.

This is a roll back to the 1970s of "well yes I did use the n word or p word - but I didn't mean any harm by it, I'm not racist, can't you take a joke etc etc"

I don't think it achieves anything but to make people on the marches feel better about themselves. These marches have been going on for decades. Netanyahu isn't going to stop doing what he's doing. Hell, the UN couldnt even stop the settlements Re: will people be rubbing their hands with glee if the Jews were annihilated as a result of ' Palestine being free from the river to the sea' I suspect most people on those marches will go back to their lives, forgetting all about it.

There are not a multitude of rallies on. There was a planned prayer walk in London which the police asked the organisers to cancel because of safety concerns. They also told a group with a van advertising the hostages to go home for their own safety. There was a small vigil yesterday in Trafalgar Square which had loads of security only one way to enter. It was in marked contrast to the pro-palestine tales which were very threatening and included jihad shouts and waving the Isis flag. The police just turned a blind eye. It turns out an exiled Hamas leader is living in Barnet. I am very worried and I'm not even Jewish.

It’s an attempt to raise awareness, and make those people’s feelings clear to the Government and others. In this case for me it’s saying “not in my name” in response to the Government line.
Thats my interpretation anyway. I’ve been on plenty of marches and rallies in my time - right back to the CND days!

@saffronsoup
But how are Israelis and Jews all over the world meant to know what the people chanting mean? How are we meant to know if they just want to be free or if they want to kill all Jews? So obviously, without knowing for sure what they're thinking, we're going to assume the worst case scenario as that's the only way to potentially save ourselves from being lynched.

I hope you understand why it is therefore considered an anti-semitic chant, not just one in favour of letting Palestinians live in peace in the land they call home.

(And no, I don't mean "call home" as in trying to imply it isn't actually their home. I'm just too tired to think of a better phrase. I mean the land they live in.)

@watcherintherye
"If it were Jewish people being marginalised, under siege and under constant bombardment without any protection, do you really think people would be standing by and rubbing their hands in glee? Maybe you do, and I’m sorry for that, but I can guarantee that would not be the case."

Yes, I do think that. In fact, as of 16 days ago we have proof of that. There were street parties all over the world celebrating the slaughter, maiming, raping, torture, kidnapping etc of innocent Israelis.

I know you don't want to believe it, but it's true. They were handing out sweets to children in celebration all over Gaza. There were fireworks set off in London in celebration.

What's the point of the marching and the chanting? What does it actually achieve? Other than to make many Jewish people feel unsupported, unwelcome and very obviously outnumbered.

Other than that, does it make any material difference to the suffering of Palestinians?

Do you truly not see Palestinians as oppressed?

"Free Palestine" in a meaningful sense, would mean freeing Palestinian people from their oppressive, authoritarian government who took over, stopped elections for 16 years, give their citizens no rights, waste all their money on bombs, radicalise their young people to violence and use all their resources to engage in terrorism with their next door neighbour.

If they stopped doing all that, Palestinian people could build a country of prosperity and safety.

As is, nothing Israel does or does not do would actually make that happen.