What do you understand from the chant 'Free Palestine'?

Palestinian people will not be free until Hamas terrorists are gone.

Israel uses its weapons to protect its people.

Hamas uses its people to protect its weapons.

Maybe Hamas could share some of the fuel it stole from the UN this week with the people that need it? Just a thought

Reading that is awful and the journalists saw the Hamas filmed footage themselves. It's was a new level of barbarity.

The key to this, I suspect, is America. Their unflinching support for Israel means that America has a huge amount of influence. Rishi can posture and flit between capitols but Biden is the one that got the Rafah crossing opened. The trouble is, the one card they have(withdrawal of support) cannot be played as the American people will not allow it.

I agree Biden is key - and we don't know at all what is discussed behind closed doors w Netanyahu we just see the political theatre and some changes in communications from the WH - impressed that the Rafah crossing was re-opened thus far the aid has been 'modest' and hasn't resulted in Netanyahu losing face

But it does seem pretty precarious to me wrt to the health and survival of Gazans - it would only take an outbreak of cholera or meningitis to tip it over into many more fatalities

Surely the US public have a limit as to how much loss of life is too much?

This will attract the extremes from both sides. This is what it means to me. I want both sides to live in peace and freedom. I want a two state solution that allows Palestinians a passport, a seat in the UN, the freedom to travel, to own land,to thrive and prosper. In order to get that, they will have to lay down the guns, take the terrorists out of their politics and come to the table.

For Israel to live in peace with its neighbours it will have to go to the UN and say help us achieve this peace. It will have to hand over control of the West Bank and Gaza to a third party who will establish a nation state, hold free and fair elections and most importantly, it will have to stop the illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

Israel will have to allow the UN to enforce the peace and during the process of disarming the mad men will have to not react to the extreme provocations by bombing women and children.

Alternatively, both sides can keep doing what they’re doing and genocide will almost certainly follow.

The irony is, the people who suffered the most horrific attempt at genocide, now look like the ones attempting genocide but that could change. Israel has fought wars with its neighbours and has, usually, been successful but it’s still surrounded and outnumbered.

I support Israel’s right to exist but they have been led into a trap and I can’t see an easy way out for them. Hamas and Iran have forced them into a situation where their actions will either make them look weak or make them look brutal. You can lay the blame for that squarely at Netanyahu’s feet. He won’t look weak and he’s going down the brutal road in rapid order.

The key to this, I suspect, is America. Their unflinching support for Israel means that America has a huge amount of influence. Rishi can posture and flit between capitols but Biden is the one that got the Rafah crossing opened. The trouble is, the one card they have(withdrawal of support) cannot be played as the American people will not allow it.

It's so abhorrent I can't get my head around such shockingly vile behaviour

From what I've seen so far 'Free Palestine' would appear to mean kill all Israeli Jews

Horrific details of Hamas massacre emerge
mol.im/a/12666289

You are right the saying has been corrupted. Therefore when protesting about this situation or to stop the bombing it is wrong to sing the chant. Other situations not about the conflict or either I or P then that would not be shameful.

Yes there are a small percentage of Israelis that are horrid and say nasty violent stuff. However these tend to be either extremist religious nuts or people that have had loved ones killed by Hamas or other Palestinians. Not only does all countries have there own version of these people but if we have say Palestinians may be traumatised from their family members getting killed, we have to also say the same thing for Israelis.

They don't live in Israel. Palestinian and Gaza are not part of Israel. They chose to have there own leaders. Hamas they chose in Gaza and the Palestinian authority in the West Bank. These places are like France and England. Which means they don't vote etc in each others countries. Hamas is supposed to be in charge of things like utilities, infrastructure, unemployment etc. Hamas just does a really terrible job of it because they spend all the money on weapons or steal it to buy property abroad. Israel were ask by the international community to continue helping to support in a few different ways. However only the 2 million Arab Israelis inside the border of Israel are citizens. I an not a citizen of France because it is next door. So France is not responsible for me. Plus the wall is on the west bank not Gaza. I believe you mean the blockade fence. Both were put up after terrorist attacks on buses, stabbings and bombs because nearly daily. Any country would respond in this way to stop their own civilian population getting hurt and killed.

Hamas is disgusting and I find them utterly abhorrent. They are yet another group taking something innocent and corrupting it.

Israelis literally chant death to Arabs and Muslims. I'm sure the people on the other side of the wall could flip the saying to suit them, but the phrase I think is just a call for freedom but it's been ruined and corrupted for a terrorist group's own gain.

See my previous post. And understand this is why the chant is nasty and antisemitic. I don't name many things or people antisemitic. I prefer to use the word with careful. However this is and I would seriously question the mentally of anyone that uses it. That is even if they say they don't understand the meaning because at a time like this I would never say a word, quote or sing a song ignorance of what it stands for. That makes you complicated and hopefully people will state getting arrested for this soon.

Maybe it means to literally take the walls which are caging them in down. And to give them the same rights as the Israelis in the country.

I'm astounded that people are having such a tough time being OK with other people having basic rights. The only difference between us and them is that they happened to be born in their country and we in ours.

Free palestine and from the river to the sea are code for "kill all the jews". Used by protesters to claim that there is no ethical, moral or humanitarian argument for zionism is historical revisionism and antisemitism. And there is no such thing as a pro-palestine activist...only anti-israel as we see from these people daily at the moment. They don't tend to believe in peace for both sides and only stand up for the rights of one group. Therefore are terribly bias and won't listen or look at media or social media that doesn't suit their own agenda. Hence why we are currently having fake news stories posted all the time. Then the real story comes out and yet again they are wrong etc......

Mush like Jihad having the double been done of struggle and the meaning when Islamic extremes say it. So technically does the chant. It could be said as using a more Quran based verse. However when Hamas or supports say it just like Jihad it has a different meaning. Palestinian extremist leaders have said over the years that the Muslims must rise up and retake Israel. That they will chase out the Jews from the river to the sea. If they resist then they will be taken to the sea, there heads will be cut off. Then thier babies flung into the see. Therefore the chant is a well known death chant asking for the destruction of Israel and the death of Jews.

On which point Israel should not have any settlements or presence in the West Bank because it is a separate country. It would be like France unilaterally grabbing bits of Belgium and building French towns in Belgium. This is clearly against international law.

This is very much seeing things as you feel they ought to be seen, rather than as they are. The west bank area has never been a country in its own right, like Belgium has been for centuries. In fact it's never been part of any country in the modern sense, ever.

I accept that if your desired outcome is a Palestinian state in the west bank area, it's easier for your head to get there if you assume that we're starting from a place where it's "occupied" as if the French had occupied Belgium. But that's in your head. It's simply not correct.

If you want to found a Palestinian state in the west bank, you have start with the truth.

Israeli flag for sure

I am genuinely curious as to what "Free Palestine" actually means and what does it actually look like.

So we could start with free from occupation or control.
On which point Israel should not have any settlements or presence in the West Bank because it is a separate country. It would be like France unilaterally grabbing bits of Belgium and building French towns in Belgium. This is clearly against international law. However when we look at Gaza there are no Israeli settlements or presence in Gaza. In fact Israel wants absolutely nothing to do with Gaza (along with the Egyptians for that matter).

Free from attack
Well I think both sides want this, except one side starts an attack and the other retaliates. With innocent civilians being killed on both sides.

Freedom of movement
Well no country is obliged to let anyone into their country if they don't want to.

Freedom from blockade
Again Israel is entitled to close its land borders with Gaza or the West Bank if it so chooses. Indeed Egypt closed or heavily restricted its borders with Gaza since 2012 and many other countries have closed borders.
The sea blockade is a different matter and whilst inspections of cargo vessels suspected of smuggling weapons is permitted the complete blockade is not.

Or does Free Palestine mean that the whole of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is freed from Israeli Gov control and comes under Palestinian control.
In which case where do the Israelis go?

That's very true. Once the American empire is finished the BRICS will have to sort out their pecking order and I don't expect it to be pretty!

That disparate band probably can cooperate with each other on trade, currency and military alliances against the West as a common enemy, while taking radically different approaches to internal governance.

I agree with you but once the West is weakened there is no common enemy to hold them together. China is incredibly economically expansionist, especially into Africa, which will antagonise South Africa. India and Russia are fearful of an overly powerful China too, and remember the British Empire in India started as a trading ' relationship' and India has a very long memory on that. I suspect thst in the collapse of the West, it is more likely the gap will be filled by the Right.
I'm not sure what my DH thinks because we don't talk about it. It's the only way to keep the peace! He knows I disagree with his views though!
Agree also about wilful naivete. Trying to impose Western democracy is naive in the extreme. Some places just dont want it. Just as naive as wishing that if only people weren't oppressed they would all live simple lives unburdened by their colonial overlords, presumably all living off the land and bartering for goods and services because no countries/tribes ever went to war or conquered anyehere ever until the Europeans started doing it of course!

I missed my stop this morning reading this, genuinely very interesting to me. I think because I struggle to organise my own thoughts and feelings without being overcome by emotion at the horror.
I think that the reason this has had more of an impact in the UK than say genocide in Africa is because of the fear of it being the spark for a much larger war, and perhaps to a lesser extent because of the historical role the UK has played in this complex situation.
Would it be derailing to this thread to ask: what next? What, realistically, can or should be done, and by whom, to try to limit the the devastation that comes next?

@Angrycat2768

Yes I've seen that belief. I suspect that they may be right unfortunately. The BRICS alliance isn't intended to be something like the UN, or NATO, where everyone is expected to sign up to common, actually western, values which are not remotely universal and never were. That disparate band probably can cooperate with each other on trade, currency and military alliances against the West as a common enemy, while taking radically different approaches to internal governance.

I'm not sure how leftists like your DH think the collapse of the American empire and replacement by the BRICS will go for western Europe. I'd be very interested to know. My guess is they would simply see the collapse of the American unipolar world as the end of one evil empire and an opportunity for the left in the vacuum thereafter.

One of the reasons the west in my view does deserve to end (albeit I'm extremely unhappy about it) is that it managed the extraordinary feat of uniting against it countries that, as you say, have plenty of reasons to hate each other.

Interestingly, I was reading that the only reason Gaza had an election in 2006 is because the Americans insisted on it. It was part of the project of bringing liberal democracy to everywhere on the globe. Ariel Sharon opposed it because he was concerned Hamas would be voted into power and, unlike the idiotic Americans, he understood what the consequences of that would be. A civilization just can't display this level of wilful naivety and expect to live.

My DH is somewhat captured by the Left, and apparently they have been gleefully talking about the BRICS countries and the BRICS currency, with Iran and some other African nations joining, and how they are going to form the brave new world. I don't know what these people think their lives will be like when world is run by authoritarian regimes and one of the wealthiest regimes is an Islamist fundamentalist state, but all that matters is the collapse of the dollar as the global currency. In the unlikely event that a group of countries who historically hate each other, scattered with some dictatorships and bankrolled by an Islamist regime will be anything but a disaster for them and their families, as well as the rest of us is laughably naive. In itself its a form of racism to assume all Black and Brown people will get along fine and all that is holding them back is their more intelligent colonial White masters.

I don't detect any desire from Palestinians to live under a government that's actually free as someone living in the UK would understand it.

An authoritarian regime will do nicely, as long as it's Islamic. Nobody has been protesting Hamas' rule for the last 16 years. I understand that anyone living in Gaza who protests against Hamas tends to fall from a tall building, but there have been no rallies in Trafalgar Square about it.

To be clear - if an authoritarian Islamic regime is acceptable to the Palestinians, it would be white colonialism to prevent it. But we do need to be clear what a "Free Palestine" looks like to the people in the Middle East who yearn for it: not free government, nor free of opression, but free of Jews.

No, actually. When I look at Israel, I see a modern liberal democracy with a big tech sector and an essential defensive mitilary. When I look at Gaza, I see a failed state that has power and water thanks to the charitable goodwill of it's more successful neighbour. Palestine/Hamas have channelled billions of aid money into weapons in the hope that they can eliminate all Jews.

That's what happens when an incredibly naive society thinks that it can take in refugees and participants from every conflict on Earth while actually continuing to be a refuge of any kind. Iran, ironically, would never be that dim.