For people who say I stand with Israel

Free Palestine unfortunately often means liberate the whole region, ie no more Israel, so people stand with Israel's continuous existence as a country and Jewish homeland.

I do know that many people supporting the Gazan civilians right now don't wish to see Israel's destruction, as a disclaimer to the above

Er..I don’t know where you got that idea from. I don’t think many people (outside of Hamas and their ilk) want this. Most people support the two state solution.

I don't.

Neither do I support the rape and murder of women, the burning alive of women and children, the beheading of children, the elderly being shot or having their throats slit, young people being shot.

https://twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1715848616059756720?t=5-NLoWiCJSi4I8Wis70jhg&s=19

That sums up how I see it too.

You are not.

@Auvergne63 but this isn't about YOU

I will not engage in a discussion with someone who believes that water and food have not been stopped by the Israeli government. This is despicable.
I will never stand by an Israeli government who flaunts international laws and has done for years as well as treating Palestinians as sub human. This has an echo of the past. Equally, I will never stand by Hamas or any terrorist organisations. I stand for humanity and empathy. Both my parents grew up under Nazi occupation; one of my grandfathers and a great uncle were sent to a labour camp. They survived. Their legacy was to teach me how precious life is.

I neither condemn nor condone what the Israeli government is doing.

Because I don't know what a state should do in such a situation.

What does a 'proportionate' response look like? Should the IDF go in and murder babies? Should it go and mass rape Palestinian women? Should it go and tie up children and then burn them to death? Would that satisfy those calling for a 'proportionate' response? Should it torture 80% of those it kills? You go and listen to the testimony of the ZAKA volunteers retrieving the bodies of the murdered Jewish children, women and men, to understand the deliberate torturous brutality of Hamas.

Hamas in this attack have made it clear that they do not want a peaceful solution with Israel. That is the message they have very deliberately chosen to send. Their goal was to destroy the peace process forever.

So how do you 'proportionally' respond to an enemy whose only goal is your total destruction? What would satisfy those calling for 'proportionality'?

And why are those accusing Israel of war crimes, not condemning Hamas for war crimes in their recent ttacks?. Why are those accusing Israel of disproportionality not accusing Hamas and their attacks of being disproportionate in these attacks? We all know that the disgusting answer to that is because they think the torture, rape and murder of Jewish men, women and children was proportionate. And there is no word for that other than deep anti-semitism.

Because the fact is there is no response Israel could give that would satisfy the Free Palestine Protestors and their supporters. Because their response to this massacre shows that nothing Hamas does will be condemned. And everything Israel does, will be.

You'd have thought the massacre would have caused them to go ' Ah! Now I understand why Israel needed the blockades and road checks!' But no. Instead the utter numpties are still banging on about the injustice of the blockades. Nothing, nothing will make these people open their eyes.

This ☝️

There was a civil war. The land was split. Who chose to start the war, who fought in it and who won what isn't that relevant, as they are no longer the living inheritors of the situation.

But the word "Palestinian" refers to one side of that war. This is not a "Muslim" side, as there were, and are Muslims on both sides. The Palestinian side is the side which wanted to eradicate Jews from the land they had been living on for centuries. That was what they were fighting for.

No one has ever attempted to eradicate "Palestinians" from the land.

I stand with Israel. Because I am a Jew and it is our nation.
Maybe you should ask what it means when people shout Free Palestine.
It makes me shudder because I think that means no Israel and basically kill the Jews.
That reasoning is why we have our nation.
Wouldn't it be great if those who support Palestine could think up a better slogan?

Completely agree with that, and I’m not at all suggesting that anyone is taking a gleeful enjoyment in the horrific things which are happening to citizens on both sides.

It is just more a question of whether I should read complete support for the Israeli government’s actions into the “Hamas started it”, “don’t you think the British were right” and “what do you think we should do” type posts.

This exchange is helpful in highlighting the differences which may sit under those sorts of statements. You have said that my interpretation was wrong and I take it that from that you do not fully support what the Israeli government is doing. Loulou (I think, but am not sure) does seem to support the government’s retaliation notwithstanding the resulting starvation, war crimes and breaches of international law.

Those are quite different starting points which, if made clear, are highly relevant to the discussion.

Hamas need to be eradicated and I hope there are spies within and a robust plan to finish them off from the inside.

Look, taking the very reality-based position that Hamas knew exactly that their attacks would result in severe military retaliation, and that they planned and executed them with exceptional cruelty, including filming their barbarity to goad the Israeli government with, does not mean you are gleeful about the suffering now raining down on Palestinians,.

It means you can still be angry at the suffering the Palestinians are going through whilst believing that Hamas are responsible for deliberately and carefully contriving this situation in exact knowledge of how it would play out.

Those falling for Hamas' narrative and blaming Israel 100% are fools. Absolute wilfully blind fools.

@YoDood
I mean I gave you my position on page 1.

Are you not going to answer the question then, or do you only ask them?

That’s good to hear but I genuinely would welcome your views on how that sort of post should be interpreted and what level of support it implies for the retaliatory measures being taken/proposed by the Israeli government.

Comments like those of @Loulou599 are an examplar of the rhetorical devices used in this discussion, which then mean that there’s a lack of clarity.

I mean, I assume @Loulou599 is looking for a response along the lines that I think it was right for the British to drop bombs on innocent German citizens, from which I infer that he/she supports the actions of the Israeli government. But it would be clearer if he/she would simply say that.

Yes you are.

Hope that clarifies for you.

@YoDood
How do you feel about the Brits dropping bombs on innocent German citizens during WW2?

Also, I am saying ' I stand with Israel' because of the disgusting way so many instantly turned their faces away from the victims of the Hamas attacks, despite their appalling and deliberate barbarity and cruelty, and instantly started to talk about ' understanding' and ' context' for these racist murderers and rapists.

I am saying 'I stand with Israel' to say I completely reject this way of thinking. When you start to think that a group of people, of Jewish people, as so undeserving of caring or concern, that such brutality is not instantly and unequivocably condemned, but instead the murderers are ' understood' for their ' context' then yes, I say I stand with the Israel, to reject this narrative that so dehumanises one group of people.

I always take this type of post (of which there are plenty others) to mean:

“Hamas started it, but I support the right of the Israeli government to retaliate however they choose, however disproportionately and even it entails war crimes, the breach of international law, and the killing and starvation of hundreds of thousands”.

I would love to know whether I am mispresenting the position of @soddingspiderseason and others who make similar comments?

I stand with Israel.
I want that to stop and for the worldwide underlying hatred of Jews (just because they are Jews) to end.
One of the most shocking things I saw yesterday was a picture of a young white Polish woman carrying a placard essentially saying death to Jews. This in the country of Auschwitz.
Israelis have always lived with the knowledge that their neighbours want them all dead.
They have until now provided Gaza with water and aid.

Gaza could have been prosperous and successful if the vast amounts of foreign aid intended for the Palestinian people hadn't been stolen by Hamas to by rockets.
Recently there have been signs of progress, peace with other ME countries. Even Saudi Arabia. Hamas do not want this and that's why they have started this war. Hama don't care about the Palestinian people they just want to kill all the Jews.

A two party state was genuinely on the cards until two weeks ago. Hamas have successfully scuppered that.

If Hamas are removed/wiped out, there will simply be another Hamas with a different name

Im not sure what the answer is

How can you support the bombing of children ?

Hamas is pure evil. Until Israel rids the world of Hamas, evil will remain in power.

I stand with Israel because if Hamas laid down their weapons today, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel laid down their weapons today, they would be annihilated.