For people who say I stand with Israel

Exactly this

Israel didn’t do this - this hospital explosion was caused by a rocket from Gaza - Hamas or another group. It’s also unlikely 500 were killed. Spreading misinformation doesn’t help anyone.

Free Palestine doesn’t mean what you think it does I’m afraid. What do you think Palestine needs to be free from? For many (including Hamas) it means the destruction of the Jewish state and the murder of all Jews . Same as “from the river to the sea”. If you don’t know that, you need to learn your history. Who is Palestine being freed from? They don’t mean Hamas or any of the other assorted terrorist groups.

I stand with israel (as a Jew). What I mean by that is I stand with Israel’s right to peace and security and to defend itself against these attacks.

I don't think anyone believes it would. It wasn't peaceful before 1948 and it's not been peaceful since.

But what would reasonable force look like? You are under law allowed to kill your attacker if that's the only way to save yourself.

Israel is a state that has a right to exist. Hamas has made it clear its only goal is the complete destruction of Israel and that it will torture and murder its citizens and never stop. That only leaves the complete destruction of Hamas as your option. That leaves making those who would destroy you so scared of you they never even try.

I think its five times a two state solution has been agreed to by Israel but Hamas has always refused. And now its done this. Israel is not the blockage to peace in the ME. Hamas is.

Its very easy to sit in an armchair and condemn Israel.

Its very easy to say, ' well this response will just lead to more conflict'
Its a lot harder to say exactly what Israel, (because people ONLY seem to be talking about what Israel should do, Palestine) should do to stop the conflict. What is that exactly? No-one has ever found the answer to that, have they? And the reasons for that is because Hamas refuse to agree a settlement as their only goal is the complete destruction of Israel. And what option does that leave for Israel after a racist massacre of its citizens?

Warning: what follows is awful. Stop reading now if you will find it too disturbing.

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

Read this for what Hamas have done. Here are some extracts
During the initial press conference, the forensics team showed images from their investigations. Among the images were those of charred hands with marks that revealed where the victims’ hands were bound behind their backs with metal wire before being burned alive

Two spinal cords—one belonging to an adult, one to someone young—a parent and child bound together by metal wires in a final embrace before being set alight

And you hear the stories—that behind their charred bodies, something terrible happened—it’s very difficult. I’ve seen many things in my 31-year career, but the magnitude and the cruelty [here] is terrible,” Kugel added

Okay ... let us assume this as a given for a second!

Then how do you suggest we deal with the fact that there are, literally, radical armed factions hell-bent on ethnically cleansing Palestinians - even though the people in question would argue that there "are no Palestinians", a deeply and disturbingly racist position to take - and that they are not only hypothetically taking that stance but displacing villagers in the West Bank as we are all looking to Gaza? As in: this very hour?

If it is unacceptable for Israelis to have to live with the risk of this (and, I should like to assume that as a given for anyone - then what is your suggestion for how we stop it being lived reality for Palestinians?

i would be interested in the intelligence services files and see what they truly say, rather than any media outlet. for the entire conflict.

Hamas being wiped out would not mean Peace in the Middle East.

I don't think it matters in the end what proportion of Palestinians want the Israeli state dissolved. Even if it were a minority, the majority would be irrelevant in the face of a far more motivated, well armed, funded, trained minority with support from every surrounding state. If Israel stood down its army tomorrow that would be the end of it as everyone knows.

Why are western people so desperate to centre themselves in war crimes happening
elsewhere ? So narcissistic

unless they are also relentlessly being bombed and have no access to water or electricity there’s no comparison at all ,

You can't equate all of the Palestinian people with Hamas

If Israel completely withdrew, sure!

But that would have to include giving up control over Palestinians` international borders, not "withdrawing" the way it did from Gaza.

Full national sovereignty, basically!

I am Jewish but I support Israel's right to defend itself as a sovereign state (has been so for over 70 years), rather than because it is considered the Jewish state. I disagree with what the current government is doing, it isn't just inhumane but also lacks foresight. You cannot continue the current policy of violent co-existence, your allies may not dare to tell you this, but you are running out of time because the age of American dominance is over and a multipolar world order means more conflict, so at some point unless you want to sacrifice future generations of Israelis, you need to find a solution that works for both parties). You cannot continue using your military strength on civilians and creating new generations of terrorists who would go onto hurt your own civilians. It is a perverse cycle of violence. It is not that you shouldn't defend yourself, but if you think that military force is always the solution, you would be doomed to conflict (and if the west is no longer strong, that is a recipe for disaster).

I sympathize with the Palestinian civilian population.

Not Jewish but agree Israel should exist and can defend from terror attacks

Less sure on Free Palestine

If Israel withdraws completely is that free?

For how many people is free meaning no Israel? Some, majority or few

Hmm yes I think you’re right that proportionality is perhaps not the right concept - it’s is perhaps suggestive of an eye for an eye which is inappropriate here.

I was thinking more along the lines of the principles which govern self-defence; the right to use such reasonable force as is strictly necessary in order to prevent harm to yourself or others, and no more. It is this which is hard to square against the killing of thousands, and in future hundreds of thousands, of innocent citizens.

I haven’t seen on here (MN) anything other than horror and disgust for the actions of Hamas and obviously I’m sorry if that has happened. Hamas are absolutely horrifically evil terrorists and there is no possible justification their abhorrent actions. There is absolutely no question of proportionality - it is just wrong on every possible scale. My support is fully with those who have suffered at their hands and those who are suffering from the concurrent rise in anti-semitism.

But it may also be that the Israeli government is engaged in the use of unreasonable force (using that measure above), war crimes etc which will cause horrific suffering. It is helpful to understand people’s position on this. Thank you for setting yours out so clearly.

Eh they didn't. It was a misfired jihad rocket

Not been proven either way yet.

The fact that you can't even spell Israel, plus the fact that you clearly haven't read the news that it was an Islamic Jihad rocket and not the IDF, doesn't give me much faith in any opinion you have on this topic.

For everyone saying that Palestine has a right to a state and Israel is callously denying them this, please watch this:

U

Certainly not, nor do I

Jew here.

I stand with Israel means that I believe that the Jewish people deserve a homeland and we should be able to defend it. It is historically ours.

Palestine was offered its own state many, many times. Every single time, they refused. The only resolution they would settle for was a complete destruction of Israel and one single Palestinian state.

I know what Free Palestine means - it has always meant freedom for Palestinians, peace, basic human rights such as water, the right to life essentially.

No... that is not what it means

Yeah, yeah that poster was.

Of course it isn't. My views/opinions have been formed/ influenced by my life experience like everybody else as well as seeking knowledge.

I didn't see that post as saying anything about what the Israeli government are or are not doing, but rather making the point that Hamas are focused on military/ terrorist action rather than on humanitarian work for their own people. Which is what Hamas do. They've deliberately brought down slaughter on their own people, for their own ends.