For people who say I stand with Israel

The barbaric actions of Hamas or IDF can be justified. Phosphorus bombing of innocent civilians cannot be justified. Stealing land and homes of Palestinians cannot be justified. Illegally occupying land cannot be justified

I don’t think the barbaric actions of Hamas can be justified in any way. It can’t just be ‘boiling over’

Honestly though, I was just reading a series of Twitter threads where a reasonably well-known celebrity had said that they condemn both the terrorist violence and violence against Palestinian civilians (which is really the only ethical standpoint, tbh) — and there were scores and scores of posts from twentysomethings about how this celebrity was “both-sidesing genocide”, “a genocide supporter”, “for evil”, “for white supremacy”, “a while supremacist colonialist genocidal Karen” - and bloody hell, it just went on and on and on. And I know some of those people from a fandom connection, and they are pretty much exclusively young North American and British girls who call themselves feminist, queer and non-binary.

And I’ve honestly never seen so much unhinged vitriol and so little actual knowledge of the situation (including frequent posting of inaccurate memes and all sorts of fact-free nonsense.) Apparently to say you don’t think women should be brutally raped and murdered under any circumstances, on either side, is the same as “all lives matter”. Nothing less than saying all Israelis deserve a violent death for the crime of “settler colonialism white supremacy” will do as the “correct” stance. And here I am not kidding, this is what they are quite literally arguing.

So my question is: what on Earth are we going to do with a generation of people who believe that all moral stances are this falsely easy; who make these claims whilst being so woefully underinformed; and who genuinely believe that some people — especially some women — deserve violent rape and murder because they are on the “wrong” ideological side? How do we bring this generation, as a collective, back to valuing democratic humanism and collective peace processes? What has gone so wrong with them morally that they happily justify bloody murderous vengeance, as long as it’s for an ideological cause they like? And why are they so fucking stupid that they call themselves “queer feminists” while shilling for violent men’s rights to murder, violate and subjugate women and children for a political-religious cause? Do they think that ordinary women and children in Gaza are well-served by the men of Hamas?

If ancient historical context (ie original state of Israel) is more important than more recent occupations (ie Muslim/Arab majority), which you must think, if ancient claim is the basis for it being the 'homeland' what about those whist home it was before Israel? Its not like Israel was the first to control the area. They conquered it from others, just like others eventually conquered it from them.

Why are they “ illegal settlers” Israel basically occupies the kingdom of Israel and Judah from which they were exiled. They are returning to their homeland

Why are western people so desperate to centre themselves in war crimes happening
elsewhere ? So narcissistic

unless they are also relentlessly being bombed and have no access to water or electricity there’s no comparison at all ,

I am Jewish but I support Israel's right to defend itself as a sovereign state (has been so for over 70 years), rather than because it is considered the Jewish state. I disagree with what the current government is doing, it isn't just inhumane but also lacks foresight. You cannot continue the current policy of violent co-existence, your allies may not dare to tell you this, but you are running out of time because the age of American dominance is over and a multipolar world order means more conflict, so at some point unless you want to sacrifice future generations of Israelis, you need to find a solution that works for both parties). You cannot continue using your military strength on civilians and creating new generations of terrorists who would go onto hurt your own civilians. It is a perverse cycle of violence. It is not that you shouldn't defend yourself, but if you think that military force is always the solution, you would be doomed to conflict (and if the west is no longer strong, that is a recipe for disaster).

I sympathize with the Palestinian civilian population.

Israel has kept Palestinians in the largest open air prison. They have no way in and no way out. They have nothing. Settlers keep stealing their land so Gaza has drastically reduced in size over the past decades. IDF constantly arrest small children and imprison them. Palestinians are constantly attacked by settlers and their homes and businesses destroyed. The frustration and anger has finally boiled over. These people have nothing compared to Israelis living in luxury and having the most powerful army. Israel are now indiscriminately killing innocent children and destroying whatever these poor people had.

Or maybe when illegal settlers come in and steal homes and land and Israel Bomb the open air prison every year then money is needed to rebuild and rehome CONSTANTLY. Leaders of every country live in mansions. Look at the UK. Our food banks have never been so busy. Children are living in the worst poverty, homelessness is evident and people are struggling to pay for food and fuel, yet the leaders all live in mansions!

In the same vein, I am truly astonished at all the staunch allies and true friends the state of Israel seems to have all of a sudden! And how saddened and deeply concerned your friendly neighbourhood rabid racist suddenly seems to be by anti-semitism.

@HeidiInTheBigCity that’s a pretty nasty claim. I’m concerned at the massive upsurge of antisemitism; my Jewish friends, all left-liberal and pro-peace, are terrified. Are you saying that we’re all “rabid racists” to be concerned? If anything, the rabid racists seem to be all for it.

I have Jewish friends who were due to visit this week from Germany, and have cancelled in fear, feeling safer in Germany than anywhere else at the moment. Yes, that might be a nice historical irony for you to chuckle at. It’s not very surprising, though, is it? Germans are in general pretty aware of the long history of Judaism and antisemitism, the history of Israel, etc. They are aware because they are taught it and it’s part of the national culture now. Whereas the majority of anti-Israel posters on here, Twitter and elsewhere not only haven’t got the foggiest about the actual history, but lap up all sorts of uncritical and unevidenced nonsense sloshing around social media, unaware that they are basically recycling age-old antisemitic tropes that have been knocking around since the 1860s (or even since the Middle Ages).

Even in the 90s I remember in my student days, people could argue the issues around this with a degree of knowledge. Now it all seems taken from Twitter memes about “settler colonialism” with vanishingly little sense of detail about any of it. “Research” means watching a TV programme or a YouTube video. It’s all a game of virtue-signalling, increasingly disconnected from reality, and no critical thinking in sight (unless you’re debunking the “other side”’s “intelligence” - then suddenly everyone is an amateur intercept artist and worldly sceptic. Of course, how can you trust the Canadian government or the “MSM”! But some rando on Twitter is definitely in the know!)

What I don’t see is any sense of consequences. Does anyone really think Hamas’s only choice for peace was bloody terrorism? Err, no. They could go back to the table at any time, and would have global support to do so; indeed operatives were boasting in televised interviews that they had been lulling Israel into a false sense of security by pretending to be moving towards peace, whilst actually planning the attack.) Does anyone believe that there isn’t a strong strain of genuinely rabid antisemitism in many extremist Muslim groups? (Well, you can try to pretend, but it’s not going to be convincing: it‘a right out there.) Does anyone educated on the British left really not know what they are allying themselves with when they go to marches shouting antisemitic slogans? What do you think?

What’s the end goal here? Who genuinely thinks that the Oct 7 massacre was justified, or a great beautiful freedom fight, if they don’t idolise a leetle bit of rape and murder as long as it sounds justified, and is happening to people far away who they think might deserve to have their toddlers murdered? Or deserve to sit in Germany seeing the broken body of their dead daughter being paraded on the back of a terrorist truck?

And if they don’t think terrorism and murder is justified, why aren’t more people on those marches saying so? Is “I don’t condone terrorism but support a ceasefire, an international peace process and the return of all hostages” just not as snappy as “from the river to the sea”?

I realise it is nasty. Very nasty!

And yet, within the specific context I was referring to, it is true and it is happening!

People on social media are, literally, posting "we need to get rid of those anti-semites - the only solution is: vote AfD!"

In the same vein, I am truly astonished at all the staunch allies and true friends the state of Israel seems to have all of a sudden! And how saddened and deeply concerned your friendly neighbourhood rabid racist suddenly seems to be by anti-semitism.

@HeidiInTheBigCity that’s a pretty nasty claim. I’m concerned at the massive upsurge of antisemitism; my Jewish friends, all left-liberal and pro-peace, are terrified. Are you saying that we’re all “rabid racists” to be concerned? If anything, the rabid racists seem to be all for it.

I have Jewish friends who were due to visit this week from Germany, and have cancelled in fear, feeling safer in Germany than anywhere else at the moment. Yes, that might be a nice historical irony for you to chuckle at. It’s not very surprising, though, is it? Germans are in general pretty aware of the long history of Judaism and antisemitism, the history of Israel, etc. They are aware because they are taught it and it’s part of the national culture now. Whereas the majority of anti-Israel posters on here, Twitter and elsewhere not only haven’t got the foggiest about the actual history, but lap up all sorts of uncritical and unevidenced nonsense sloshing around social media, unaware that they are basically recycling age-old antisemitic tropes that have been knocking around since the 1860s (or even since the Middle Ages).

Even in the 90s I remember in my student days, people could argue the issues around this with a degree of knowledge. Now it all seems taken from Twitter memes about “settler colonialism” with vanishingly little sense of detail about any of it. “Research” means watching a TV programme or a YouTube video. It’s all a game of virtue-signalling, increasingly disconnected from reality, and no critical thinking in sight (unless you’re debunking the “other side”’s “intelligence” - then suddenly everyone is an amateur intercept artist and worldly sceptic. Of course, how can you trust the Canadian government or the “MSM”! But some rando on Twitter is definitely in the know!)

What I don’t see is any sense of consequences. Does anyone really think Hamas’s only choice for peace was bloody terrorism? Err, no. They could go back to the table at any time, and would have global support to do so; indeed operatives were boasting in televised interviews that they had been lulling Israel into a false sense of security by pretending to be moving towards peace, whilst actually planning the attack.) Does anyone believe that there isn’t a strong strain of genuinely rabid antisemitism in many extremist Muslim groups? (Well, you can try to pretend, but it’s not going to be convincing: it‘a right out there.) Does anyone educated on the British left really not know what they are allying themselves with when they go to marches shouting antisemitic slogans? What do you think?

What’s the end goal here? Who genuinely thinks that the Oct 7 massacre was justified, or a great beautiful freedom fight, if they don’t idolise a leetle bit of rape and murder as long as it sounds justified, and is happening to people far away who they think might deserve to have their toddlers murdered? Or deserve to sit in Germany seeing the broken body of their dead daughter being paraded on the back of a terrorist truck?

And if they don’t think terrorism and murder is justified, why aren’t more people on those marches saying so? Is “I don’t condone terrorism but support a ceasefire, an international peace process and the return of all hostages” just not as snappy as “from the river to the sea”?

In the same vein, I am truly astonished at all the staunch allies and true friends the state of Israel seems to have all of a sudden! And how saddened and deeply concerned your friendly neighbourhood rabid racist suddenly seems to be by anti-semitism.

@HeidiInTheBigCity that’s a pretty nasty claim. I’m concerned at the massive upsurge of antisemitism; my Jewish friends, all left-liberal and pro-peace, are terrified. Are you saying that we’re all “rabid racists” to be concerned? If anything, the rabid racists seem to be all for it.

I have Jewish friends who were due to visit this week from Germany, and have cancelled in fear, feeling safer in Germany than anywhere else at the moment. Yes, that might be a nice historical irony for you to chuckle at. It’s not very surprising, though, is it? Germans are in general pretty aware of the long history of Judaism and antisemitism, the history of Israel, etc. They are aware because they are taught it and it’s part of the national culture now. Whereas the majority of anti-Israel posters on here, Twitter and elsewhere not only haven’t got the foggiest about the actual history, but lap up all sorts of uncritical and unevidenced nonsense sloshing around social media, unaware that they are basically recycling age-old antisemitic tropes that have been knocking around since the 1860s (or even since the Middle Ages).

Even in the 90s I remember in my student days, people could argue the issues around this with a degree of knowledge. Now it all seems taken from Twitter memes about “settler colonialism” with vanishingly little sense of detail about any of it. “Research” means watching a TV programme or a YouTube video. It’s all a game of virtue-signalling, increasingly disconnected from reality, and no critical thinking in sight (unless you’re debunking the “other side”’s “intelligence” - then suddenly everyone is an amateur intercept artist and worldly sceptic. Of course, how can you trust the Canadian government or the “MSM”! But some rando on Twitter is definitely in the know!)

What I don’t see is any sense of consequences. Does anyone really think Hamas’s only choice for peace was bloody terrorism? Err, no. They could go back to the table at any time, and would have global support to do so; indeed operatives were boasting in televised interviews that they had been lulling Israel into a false sense of security by pretending to be moving towards peace, whilst actually planning the attack.) Does anyone believe that there isn’t a strong strain of genuinely rabid antisemitism in many extremist Muslim groups? (Well, you can try to pretend, but it’s not going to be convincing: it‘a right out there.) Does anyone educated on the British left really not know what they are allying themselves with when they go to marches shouting antisemitic slogans? What do you think?

What’s the end goal here? Who genuinely thinks that the Oct 7 massacre was justified, or a great beautiful freedom fight, if they don’t idolise a leetle bit of rape and murder as long as it sounds justified, and is happening to people far away who they think might deserve to have their toddlers murdered? Or deserve to sit in Germany seeing the broken body of their dead daughter being paraded on the back of a terrorist truck?

And if they don’t think terrorism and murder is justified, why aren’t more people on those marches saying so? Is “I don’t condone terrorism but support a ceasefire, an international peace process and the return of all hostages” just not as snappy as “from the river to the sea”?

Why have the illegal settlers continued to steal land and homes? Why has Gaza shrunk in size over the past decades. Why doesn’t Israel allow aid in by sea to Palestine without attacking it. Why are children put in prison? How are small children a threat? It’s definitely not one sided.

@MrsFinkelstein Isreal most certainly did drop a bomb on that hospital! You clearly believe the isreal propaganda.
Isreal repeatedly break international law. There is no justifiable excuse for that.

If that’s really what it means, then why haven’t the Palestinians got a state by now? This has been offered over and over again during the last fifty years, as long as the terrorist attacks on Israel stop, and the Palestinians and the Arab world recognises a two-state solution?

What’s your answer for why it hasn’t happened already, if they only want peace and a Palestinian state?

I stand with Israel means to me that I will always support the existence of Israel as a democratic Jewish state. It also means I completely support the principle of them doing what they need to do to bring the hostages home and I support the need to eliminate Hamas.

Do not support the current Israel government who I hold responsible for entirely screwing up and tiny chance of a peaceful peace process and I do not support the starvation of innocent Gazan citizens

I will support the right of a Jewish homeland to the end of my days and also support a 2 state solution with a democratic government in Gaza and the West Bank helping them to build an infrastructure.

I support equal rights for arab Israel citizens within Israel and I believe that any Jews choosing to live on the West Bank need to do so under Palestinian rule and not colonise the land for themselves

I listened to a podcast yesterday which talked of the distinction between Israel wanting a protected state and preparing to fight for it and Hamas wanting eradication of all Jews in the area. So it’s not a case of Palestinians wanting peace, its much more than that.

This is where people have no idea what a 2 state solution means - it can't be split "down the middle" into 50:50 as that would mean expelling people from Israel and no more expansion. Israel do not mean they want to give up land when they say they want a 2 state solution - currently the Jewish and Palestinian population is more or less equal, I think about 6 million each. However, Israel 'owns' more than 80% of the land. If it was to be a 50:50 fairstate Israel would need to give back land, expell some of its inhabitants and prevent any newcomers. It's not going to happen.

So what should happen then?

They don’t have nothing because of Israel, but because they’d rather spend the aid money they do get on bombs and weapons to attack Israel, rather than infrastructure, water, power, food, jobs and secondary and tertiary industries. Wouldn’t you try to stop people who want to kill you from doing so? Especially if they were so committed to it they’d rather live in squalor just to maybe have one more bomb. Not the leaders though, they live in mansions in Qatar.