Israel now bombing Lebanon and Syria too …

This is just stupid, of course Israel fired rockets back.

@FOJN
Still can't make sense of what you mean then. You say you understand what I'm saying, but then your comments imply you don't. Maybe it's the use of ... that's making your point not come across? So to be clear, you agree that Israelis have been terrorised and that as a result of being terrorised since the formation of their state that they are by definition also victims? If so, glad we're in agreement on this point

Read both my posts again and try not to make random accusations about the motives of people you know nothing about.

For someone who claims to be interested in peace you seem very committed to starting arguments with randoms on the internet.

Made in 2017 with Trocaire an Irish voluntary group working in Palestine
https://vimeo.com/221868603

Both ‘governments’ could be considered far right, facist and racist to be fair.
I feel really conflicted about this whole conflict.

I believe Israel has the right to exist, especially following the ethnic cleansing and genocide they have faced over hundreds of years. Jewish people deserve a ‘safe’ country.
I believe they have the right to defend themselves against a country/regime who want them erased from the map. ‘From the river to the sea’.

But then you see the withdrawal of water etc, hundreds of civilians dead with hospitals and schools targeted.

But then Hamas are hiding the weapons in these places.

I don’t know what to think.

A two state solution is the only way in my mind, but I don’t think we’ll ever see it

@FOJN
Right. Is that you implying that the 1400 slaughtered Israelis deserved it, or that it wasn't terrorism?

Anyway, it sounds like this won't be a very productive discussion as clearly only one side are victims in your eyes. Fascinating take on a very complicated situation, so I'm relieved to see you have all the answers. Hopefully your incredible insight into all this will help lead to peace. Unless it's not peace you want? Sort of getting those vibes from you, but happy to be corrected!

No I think I understood and made my position clear.

Israel is being very badly served by it's government.

I'm not the least bit confused about who are the victims of terrorist atrocities....

Oh sorry, I assumed you'd understood my original post.

I was saying that Israelis are also victims of both their government but also of the constant terror from their neighbours. Or did you understand and you just don't agree? If so, I'd be interested to know why.

Hopefully Hamas keep releasing hostages and there can be peace soon

Why are you asking if the Israelis deserves some sympathy then?

I'm not the least bit confused about who are the victims of terrorist atrocities and which government is now committing war crimes.

I hold neither the Palestinian or Israeli civilian populations responsible.

@FOJN
Plenty of people aren't able to distinguish between Israelis and the Israeli government. That's why Israelis in eg Turkey, Jordan etc have been advised to fly home asap as they are now at risk of being hurt or killed.

I think there were issues raised in the news a while ago about lack of support for ex-soldiers in the IDF. It followed on from a horrendous case where an ex-soldier set himself on fire. War is terrible, even if you are on the side with the bigger army, better weapons and adequate food and water. Still a terrible thing to kill another human being, and the soldiers don't come away from that unscathed. Even those just pushing buttons to kill people with bombs, I don't think are unmarked by it.

Do Israelis not also deserve sympathy? Some kind of understanding for why they have the government they have?

If you are unable to distinguish between Hamas and Palestinian civilians then I can understand why you might think those of us concerned about Palestinian civilians don't distinguish between the government of Israel and Israeli civilians. You would be mistaken.

I agree with a PP about the Israeli reservists who will die in this war. Most will be young men with no combat experience, sent into an urban warfare environment against enemy combatants who have the advantage by virtue of knowing their way round Gaza. Israel may win in the end but it will come at a huge cost in terms of loss of life for their military.

I won't be here gloating about that. I think it's disgusting that the government will feed these young men into the Gaza meat grinder and possibly trigger a wider conflict which will impact all Israeli citizens. Israel is being very badly served by it's government.

I agree with you. It is traumatic for both sides. Both live in fear. Israel has more power, more land, a bigger army and more weapons, more defenses, and more support for wiping out Palestine - hence why people currently fear for the Palestinian people.

However as I sad in another comment, there are also a lot of young Israeli adult reservists who will be called up to fight and die in a war they don't want either.

Neither side has peace.

Over and over again I see people excusing the existence of Hamas and them being in power because the poor Palestinians are traumatised so they elected Hamas and keep supporting them because they don't think they have any other choice.

One example is @Toothyfruity with
"It tends to happen in traumatised and besieged communities when every other authority has failed you or won't represent you so you tend to rely on those who will stand up for you and claim to stand for you, whether you agree with everything they do or not."

Does no one think it's possible that's exactly what's happened in Israel as well? That's why there's a right-wing nutter in charge? Israelis have lived in fear of being attacked since the day the country was formed. Do we not think that also might be fucking traumatic? My brother was almost killed in the last war with Lebanon. A war Hezbollah started by kidnapping two and killing three soldiers. And now they're at it again.

Do Israelis not also deserve sympathy? Some kind of understanding for why they have the government they have?

Well I found this:

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah

Might of been better if you’d looked yourself

Israel has been bombing Iranian proxies in Syria for years although they didn't actually admit to it until 2017.

I told you what they said, just upthread. Didn't you see? You want me to search this website to find them for you? No. I'm sure you're curious and motivated enough to do that yourself

So we’ll just discount these polls that you told us all about but can’t provide a source for shall we?

@Meshigenus , ok I’m getting up to speed here. But if Hezbollah were murdering hundreds of Palestinians in Syria, then where were the pro Palestinian protesters then? Why were they not out in force marching for their rights then?

Where was the outrage then?

I told you what they said, just upthread. Didn't you see? You want me to search this website to find them for you? No. I'm sure you're curious and motivated enough to do that yourself.

There were several, from several sources, as you'd expect. You could probably find them if you searched. You were interested in what Gazans believe since 2006, but you didn't google it at all? Or did you think there'd be no opinion polls there in 17 years?

Look, could you just tell me?
Would it hurt you to answer the question? - assuming you can of course.

There were several, from several sources, as you'd expect. You could probably find them if you searched. You were interested in what Gazans believe since 2006, but you didn't google it at all? Or did you think there'd be no opinion polls there in 17 years?

Haven't you read all the opinion polls from recent years that were posted on here repeatedly on several threads?

No, where did theses polls come from. (whats the source I mean)

Haven't you read all the opinion polls from recent years that were posted on here repeatedly on several threads? Or do you mean because you can't know what they think right now this minute you couldn't know what they've been thinking since 2006? Because I did read those posts and they unfortunately did appear to show that a majority of Gazans support one or other of the terrorist groups. Palestine Islamic jihad actually were more popular than Hamas though, as far as I recall.

I understand this looks concerning if you only started paying attention to the region this month, but the Syria situation at least is nothing new.

Israel has been bombing strategic targets in Assad-controlled Syria for years.

Iran uses the Damascus and Aleppo airports to supply weapons and munitions to Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon.

Given the current risk of Hezbollah opening a second front against Israel from Lebanon, Israel is therefore bombing those Syrian airports every few days to keep them out of action so Hezbollah can’t get new supplies from Iran.

Israel has been doing similar strategic bombing in Syria for years - they’re targeting military sites, hardly any civilians are affected, and it’s never escalated before.

Are you not interested in what Gazans think? Surely it's important to understand that if you want to end the conflict?

Of course I am. I just don’t know.