Channel 4 News report into IDF evidence for Gaza hospital bombing

Yes - I am criticizing Israel. Loud and clear. I am criticizing Israel.

Yes - I ignore everything Hamas says except when it about hostages, and even then only when verified.

In every post on this topic I have always stated that Hamas are animals and what they did turned my bones to jelly.

I am not saying that anymore because this has wiped that out.

After the attacks on Israel ALL support was the right to defend etc.

That is not a right to slaughter.

Refusing all accountability for this through naked or veiled "anti semitic" finger pointing does not cut it.

if expressions of sympathy and horror only go one way, like I said, people need to reflect on how that comes across.

I would reverse this to you - if you see dead Israeli babies as giving you a right to slaughter your neighbors don't you see that their dead babies give them that right too?

A great merry go round.

Thanks for this thread OP. This v important report from channel 4 did kind of disappear. I saw a headline and then nothing for a good few days. Am
glad it’s being highlighted and spoken about on here. Channel 4 are a very well respected news organisation. I understand there is a verify dept at the bbc. They’ve been working 24/7 verifying footage and images. There are a lot of fake images being posted by people affiliated to all sorts of organisations/departments etc. It’s very difficult to find what is true and what false at times like these. God knows how countries will
investigate matters when AI develops even more!

Has Israel released any CCTV footage of their own from the area? They’ve shown Hamas footage but I’ve not seen any CCTV footage. I think they would have CCTV all along the wall and in the region generally?

Palestinians understandably don't tend to speak of 'Israelis' as to them the land is called Palestine. In Arabic they say 'Yahud' meaning the Jews, but they are talking about Jews in Israel, not Jews in general.

you should stop being an apologist.

If you’re in a genuine fight against a country you’d have enough respect to use it’s name in your native language.

When someone says to kill Jews, they mean kill Jews.

I though he said likely not most likely. I know that is a bit nitpicking but the difference is there. One of the govt ministers on breakfast tv yesterday definitely said it was likely not most likely as he was asked directly.

I posted the list of organisers of last weekend's march - ie it's in the past - in reply to another poster who said it was organised by Stop the War only. I think it's important to understand exactly who and what you're supporting when you turn up to a march.

This?

Fascinating how you have cut bits out of what I said in order to criticise Israel.

I said 'question every report from Israel but unconditionally accept every report from Hamas'. You have defended questioning every report from Israel, which is fine as you say, they are not always honest. Do you accept reports about Israel from Hamas, a proscribed terrorist group? If you are equally as suspicious, then I'm not talking about you.

I then said "express horror at is what being done to the Palestinians while ignoring, or even worse, being dismissive about the Hamas terrorist attacks"

And you cut the bit about the Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel to express horror at what is being done to the Palestinians. Why aren't you writing about closing your eyes imagining your DC being abducted as well?

If expressions of sympathy and horror only go one way, like I said, people need to reflect on how that comes across.

How is saying they committed an atrocity supporting them.

George Orwell was right about newspeak wasn't he.

@Iwasafool

"It is possible that both sides are perpetrating atrocities."

The atrocities committed by Hamas are indescribably sick. Just beyond comprehension. Yet still you defend them. Blimey.

It is possible that both sides are perpetrating atrocities.

@mushti
I know you want it to be about Palestinans vs. Israelis, because that would make you feel better about backing the Palestinians - but it's not. Look at what the Hamas murderers boasted about - not "I killed Israelis" - but "I killed Jews".

Context and language is everything. Palestinians understandably don't tend to speak of 'Israelis' as to them the land is called Palestine. In Arabic they say 'Yahud' meaning the Jews, but they are talking about Jews in Israel, not Jews in general. The Jews who are terrorising them, not Jews in other countries going about their own business. (I'm not condoning boasting about killing anyone btw). However, when speaking English they do say 'Israelian.'

And will you be calling loudly for Hamas to release the hostages? And for Hamas to be overthrown so that Gaza's people can start to build a peaceful state? Will you absolutely ensure that there is NO antisemitism amongst those marching?

Some people who may not think they are antisemitic but e.g. question every report from Israel

The problem there is that IDF and the government have, many times, presented flase information. That makes sensible people second guess.

accepting every report from Hamas, or who express horror at is what being done to the Palestinians

60,000 bombs in 6 days. Come on. We know what that means for civillians. No Hamas needed. Close your eyes and imagine your dcs in that.

Israel needs to sort Hamas out.

This is obliteration of the Palestinian people.

Of course it’s about religion. Why are there are videos all over SM of Palestinians chanting ‘Allahu Akbar’ after the atrocities committed to the Israeli civilians that were tortured, raped, beheaded and burned alive. Both by the government organisation that carried them out and by civilians in the streets.

The Muslim states surrounding Israel declared war in it as soon as it was proclaimed a Jewish state. The Palestinian government Charter is as follows:

‘The Covenant proclaims that Israel will exist until Islam obliterates it, and jihad against Jews is required until Judgement Day. Compromise over the land is forbidden. The documents promote holy war as divinely ordained, reject political solutions, and call for instilling these views in children.’

Are people really that dense or is the truth too unpalatable?

Except it isn't; it's 100% Palestinians vs. Jews.

I know you want it to be about Palestinans vs. Israelis, because that would make you feel better about backing the Palestinians - but it's not. Look at what the Hamas murderers boasted about - not "I killed Israelis" - but "I killed Jews".

I think what is worth mentioning and media forget or misreporting is this was is not Muslim Vs Jewish is Palestinians Vs Israelis. No space for anticimitism. Antizionism yes but is not about religions is about the states.

Israel has bombed other hospitals, UN schools, mosques and churches. Think of that what you will.

When: Saturday 21 October, 12PM
Where: Marble Arch, London
Join us again next Saturday 21 October to demand an end to the war on Gaza.
Organised by: Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Friends of Al-Aqsa, Stop the War Coalition, Muslim Association of Britain, Palestinian Forum in Britain, Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

HermioneWeasley · Yesterday 20:08

@Gruntsandgroans i haven’t seen hundreds of thousands of people (mostly Muslim) on the streets of London protesting the murder and oppression of Uighur Muslims in China (which has been described as an attempted genocide), I haven’t seen them yelling “fuck the chinese” and Chinese people have not had to close their schools and places of worship for safety, so yes, this is very much about religion. That’s not to say Israel can’t be criticised, but if it’s the only place you’re criticising then you might want to consider you’re motivated at least as much by anti semitism as you are by humanitarian concerns.

The demonstrations aren't organised by Muslims, they're organised by the Stop the War Coalition. It is you who is seeing it as a religious conflict simply because lots of visibly Muslim people were there. I doubt very much that the Socialist Worker Party or any of the affiliated organisations are endorsing attacks on Jewish communities in the UK. There will be misguided individuals who do that but it's wrong to conflate them with legitimate demonstrators and reduce this horrific genocide that's unfolding into a Muslim/Jewish religious conflict.

You are generalising. I can speak only for myself and the people around me and when I heard about the hospital I thought there is a high possibility it is Israeli Rocket ( as had warned people they need to move and they are operating in the area, I thought was a misfired israeli Rocket is highly possible). But at the same time I wandered if is Hamas themselves in order to blame Israel and people be more sympathetic with them . And my husband who is Muslim and Moroccan told me is could be possible as a part of Hamas ( not all as he explained to me is complicated and is not just the terrorist part) are terrorists who do not care about human lives is general. Nevertheless I support that Palestine should be an independent country the occupation should end and part of the land unlawfully stolen should be returned to them . Along with Israel they should manage to live in peace

It’s sad to see people using the word anti semitism as way to silence genuine concerns about decades long human rights violations of course anyone targeting that community is disgraceful but it’s disingenuous to say most people aren’t talking about the current war crimes happening.

Some people who may not think they are antisemitic but e.g. question every report from Israel while unconditionally accepting every report from Hamas, or who express horror at is what being done to the Palestinians while ignoring, or even worse, being dismissive about the Hamas terrorist attacks should probably spend some time reflecting how that might come across.

It’s sad to see people using the word anti semitism as way to silence genuine concerns about decades long human rights violations of course anyone targeting that community is disgraceful but it’s disingenuous to say most people aren’t talking about the current war crimes happening.

i think in the age of Social media we are seeing things we wouldn’t see before, an Israeli influencer did a mock grwm wearing a hijab and all of the brushes were covered in dust mocking being bombed and the comments are atrocious, “where is your sense of humour?” a lot of rampant Islamophobia around , I’m sure many people are not sure really what to think ,maybe some of the older posters aren’t really seeing that kind of thing?

there’s a lot videos of Jewish members showing immense bravery , at the London March pro Israel marchers were shouting abuse at them calling them scum and in Palestine some confronted the IDF exceptional bravery that could have cost them their life, human decency shouldn’t be a matter of religion

‘bleat’. Wow. What a choice of words

This ^

You shouldn't be able to go to live in a land just because your ancestors lived there thousands of years ago. If is like a this since my ancestors are the ancient Greeks and Alexander conquered all that countries I can go live there. Or since Greeks were living in all Aegean coast and Istanbul as well black sea I can go and take the land. Anyway now Israel exists and people are born there, they should be able to live in peace. But should be have a 2 states solution for everyone to live in peace and the settlers in Palestinian grounds to stop stealing people's land and homes. People are going to courts to get back their homes but the only court they can go is Israeli court and of course most of the cases they lose. Israel doesn't allow war crimes and such cases to be ruled in any other court so are left with no option to than accept they are losing their land and houses