Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

What does 'ceasing responsibility for life' mean?

488 replies

flufferknutter · 20/10/2023 15:49

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

I'm sorry for the DM link. I want to know what is meant by Israel 'ceasing responsibility for life' means though. I don't understand.

Israeli defence minister reveals plans for 'three-phase war' in Gaza

Defence Minister Yoav Gallant told Israeli lawmakers that the IDF expects to start its three-phase war with airstrikes and ground maneuvers, before defeating Hamas pockets of resistance

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12653619/Israel-reveals-plans-three-phase-war-Gaza-starting-airstrikes-ground-manoeuvres-moving-eradicate-pockets-resistance-ceasing-Israels-responsibility-life-Gaza-Strip.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
47
mushti · 22/10/2023 16:05

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 15:48

Are you sure you don’t want to type out
“Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?” just one more time?
I am by no means sick to death of it 🤣

(My previous post was sarcasm just to clarify for anyone who thinks I’ve lost the plot)

Edited

You answered it already. If anyone disagrees with your answer I'm sure they'll say so.

Coughingdodger · 22/10/2023 16:04

If the Israeli government and military really operates under those rules of war as described above I’d find that quite worrying. That such religious fundamentalism promotes preemptively killing innocent children and everybody has to respect that because it’s religion.
Hopefully that’s not how they operate.

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 15:48

Are you sure you don’t want to type out
“Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?” just one more time?
I am by no means sick to death of it 🤣

(My previous post was sarcasm just to clarify for anyone who thinks I’ve lost the plot)

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:44

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:41

You could start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare

I cant vouch for its accuracy or provenance.

Thanks alot

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:41

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:11

Could you please point me towards any resources where I can read about it please
If you know of any

You could start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare

I cant vouch for its accuracy or provenance.

Judaism and warfare - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_warfare#:~:text=The%20Talmud%20insists%20that%20before,possibility%20of%20non%2Ddefensive%20war.

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:38

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:35

I don’t know. Those are good questions I can’t answer, the answers probably depend on circumstances. What is clear is that Orthodox Judaism your own life is a gift from God and you are under a positive obligation to fight to defend it.

Very very interesting
And very similar to Islam
Also why we have a duty to look after our own bodies and now allow to cause it any harm
Which is why many scholars say tattoos are not allowed

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:35

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:06

@mushti so what are the laws surrounding this commandment. Surely its not just black and white.
How can one determine who is a threat?
Also how to ascertain your enemy wants to kill you?
What are the prerequisites that you need to be sure of before you kill the other person first?

How does the law judge who was going to kill who first and if the subsequent murder is justified?
What would be the rule if someone tried to kill you and in order to kill them you had to kill their family too? Or whole neighbourhood?

I don’t know. Those are good questions I can’t answer, the answers probably depend on circumstances. What is clear is that Orthodox Judaism your own life is a gift from God and you are under a positive obligation to fight to defend it.

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 15:32

Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?

Yes.

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:28

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:12

@mushti also do you know if Israeli laws in the matter of war are largely based on the Judaic laws of war?

Edited

Israel sees itself as bound by the same international laws of war as every other UN state, including the Geneva Conventions. I understand that many people think it is in breach of those laws, but most of those people haven’t actually read the Geneva Conventions, and none of those people have at hand the same information that Israeli military command does when deciding what is a legitimate target and what is a legitimate action. Unfortunately most shouts of “war crimes” are driven by political animus and so very very quickly lose their impact.

I’m fairly sure Jewish precepts are taken into account in decision making both by formal input from Rabbis but also because Judaism is the “background” to most Israeli officers and soldiers lives, in the way Christianity is in the UK.

i don’t have any detailed knowlege of how Jewish law is applied to decision making in the IDF, however.

One should also be aware that Jewish thought is very diverse and many many different strands of Jewish law exist, sometimes with contradictory conclusions. I may not have been clear that what I wrote earlier I learned in an academic discussion many years ago from an “orthodox” source. I don’t think that means that if Hamas besieged a Jewish town and demanded the mayor be sent out for execution that is what would happen.

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:16

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 14:59

For Palestinians looking to improve their circumstances, it’s difficult to argue Hamas has been a success

Given that Hamas are murdering people in terrorist attacks and no-one can stop them no matter how much Gaza is bombed maybe Israel’s foreign policy hasn’t been a massive success either.

I completely agree that there have been consequences for Israel of its approach to the Palestinians. But most Israeli citizens lead rich productive lives with food, water, jobs, healthcare, and all the benefits an industrialized nation can provide. The life expectancy of an Israeli citizen is 82 years, or thereabouts, a couple of years longer than in the UK.

To the extent that successive governments’ primary responsibilities are to its citizens, I’d say it not going too bad for Israel.

Do you feel that the Palestinian leadership over 75 years has served its people well?

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:12

@mushti also do you know if Israeli laws in the matter of war are largely based on the Judaic laws of war?

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:11

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:10

There are rules of war in Jewish thought. I don’t know what they all are. Two I remember are that firstly there is no concept of allowing conscientious objectors. If you are conscripted you must fight. The second is about tributes: if your city is besieged and the siege makers demand tributes to be put to death as a condition of lifting the siege should you send them out to die? The answer depends on what the demand is. If the siege makers name the tributes, you must send them out to die. If the siege makers demand hostages without identifying them, you must not: you have no authority to choose which innocents someone else will kill.

Could you please point me towards any resources where I can read about it please
If you know of any

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:10

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:59

Interesting I actually didn't know that
So what are the rules about killing the other person first?
Does it have rules on collateral damage?

There are rules of war in Jewish thought. I don’t know what they all are. Two I remember are that firstly there is no concept of allowing conscientious objectors. If you are conscripted you must fight. The second is about tributes: if your city is besieged and the siege makers demand tributes to be put to death as a condition of lifting the siege should you send them out to die? The answer depends on what the demand is. If the siege makers name the tributes, you must send them out to die. If the siege makers demand hostages without identifying them, you must not: you have no authority to choose which innocents someone else will kill.

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 15:06

@mushti so what are the laws surrounding this commandment. Surely its not just black and white.
How can one determine who is a threat?
Also how to ascertain your enemy wants to kill you?
What are the prerequisites that you need to be sure of before you kill the other person first?

How does the law judge who was going to kill who first and if the subsequent murder is justified?
What would be the rule if someone tried to kill you and in order to kill them you had to kill their family too? Or whole neighbourhood?

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 15:05

What I don’t feel is mercy

oh that’ll give you the advantage. Hamas have bucket loads of mercy 🙄

Coughingdodger · 22/10/2023 15:04

Parker231 · 22/10/2023 14:56

It’s the fault of Hamas not the ordinary Palestinian. An Israeli life isn’t worth more than an Palestinian

I was being sarcastic. This is how I think Netanyahu thinks.

mushti · 22/10/2023 15:03

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:43

@mushti everytime I see another one of your arrogant posts I think leave her she's hurting. But your really taking the biscuit. A little respect can go a long way. We can differ but still be respectful to each other.

Many Jews believe that, by showing kindness, people can try to heal the world. Jews aim to show kindness to others as the Torah teaches that people should love others in the same way that they love themselves.
Love your fellow as yourself.
Leviticus 19:1

I have respect for the Palestinians, and I have respect for your views. What I don’t feel is mercy.

Loving people who are trying to kill you is a Christian concept.

Leviticus 19:18 (I think you mean) says וְאָֽהַבְתָּ֥ לְרֵעֲךָ֖ כָּמ֑וֹךָ

How you translate it into another language and what you understand it to mean, varies widely.

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:59

mushti · 22/10/2023 14:52

Judaism is about kindness, but it’s also about not being the world’s doormat. We finished with that in 1945. Things have gone much better for us since.

I believe that Judaism also teaches that when you know someone has a plan to murder you it’s a commandment to get up early to kill them first. “Turning the other cheek” is a Christian precept.

Interesting I actually didn't know that
So what are the rules about killing the other person first?
Does it have rules on collateral damage?

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 14:59

For Palestinians looking to improve their circumstances, it’s difficult to argue Hamas has been a success

Given that Hamas are murdering people in terrorist attacks and no-one can stop them no matter how much Gaza is bombed maybe Israel’s foreign policy hasn’t been a massive success either.

Parker231 · 22/10/2023 14:56

Coughingdodger · 22/10/2023 14:39

And now thinks it’s ok to murder thousands of innocent children. But it’s not Israel’s FAULT they’re murdering thousands of children. It’s the Gazans’ fault. All of them.

It’s the fault of Hamas not the ordinary Palestinian. An Israeli life isn’t worth more than an Palestinian

mushti · 22/10/2023 14:54

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:44

THERE IS A BLOCKADE IN GAZA. YOU KNOW VERY WELL WHAT AID ENTERS IS RESTRICTED

Edited

There was no blockade of Gaza until 2007, after Hamas took over.

For Palestinians looking to improve their circumstances, it’s difficult to argue Hamas has been a success.

mushti · 22/10/2023 14:52

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:32

@mushti I have had some very productive conversations with some pro Israel posters on here
But you are nothing but full of hatred
Isn't a large part of judaism about showing kindness?
And not just to other fellow Jews but also to gentiles

Judaism is about kindness, but it’s also about not being the world’s doormat. We finished with that in 1945. Things have gone much better for us since.

I believe that Judaism also teaches that when you know someone has a plan to murder you it’s a commandment to get up early to kill them first. “Turning the other cheek” is a Christian precept.

Reallifelurker · 22/10/2023 14:46

And yet the Palestinian people who (I think you’d say) do get on with their neighbours haven’t been able to drum up any significant source of foreign aid from the many kindly-disposed and oil-rich Arab and Muslim nations of the world.

why is that?

The Muslim brotherhood got their back if that counts. Not sure I’d call them kindly disposed though.

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:44

mushti · 22/10/2023 14:42

And yet the Palestinian people who (I think you’d say) do get on with their neighbours haven’t been able to drum up any significant source of foreign aid from the many kindly-disposed and oil-rich Arab and Muslim nations of the world.

why is that?

THERE IS A BLOCKADE IN GAZA. YOU KNOW VERY WELL WHAT AID ENTERS IS RESTRICTED

Parkingt111 · 22/10/2023 14:43

@mushti everytime I see another one of your arrogant posts I think leave her she's hurting. But your really taking the biscuit. A little respect can go a long way. We can differ but still be respectful to each other.

Many Jews believe that, by showing kindness, people can try to heal the world. Jews aim to show kindness to others as the Torah teaches that people should love others in the same way that they love themselves.
Love your fellow as yourself.
Leviticus 19:1