Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

@lavender2023 as someone who used to live in Singapore you're really off the mark in comparing the two countries, I can tell you that. Singapore had independence from Malaysia, the UN didn't step in and carve a nation for them. I can see the point you're trying to make, you're just not using the right example.

The past few posts are very interesting. I didn’t know that.

I know you wrote this more than a day ago, but, yes, Abraham's the one to come and sort it out. I said that some years ago.

I do not agree with the settlements. There are two types of settlers- religious zealots who just want to cause trouble and also ordinary people who think of moving to the west bank the way a Londoner thinks of moving to Hemel Hempstead to buy a home. I know my (fairly right wing) brother in law thought that way- he asked me whether I would choose between a 2 bed flat in Tel Aviv or a 5 bed detached house in the west bank (which is apparently within driving distance to Tel aviv). I said Tel aviv obviously and he said I was silly..this was before the terror attacks. I now think I probably don't need to persuade him of the virtues of staying in a central Israeli city albeit in an apartment.

But it was a very much a similar kind of thing that many Brits have said to me when I chose to buy a 2 bed flat in London as opposed to a larger house outside London..I know this can be hard to believe but many people including Israelis look at what options they have. The government is obviously wrong for even making this an option and this is on them.

Israel is very expensive and unlike many expensive places like new York and London it doesn't have the same kind of job opportunities. Rental sector is unregulated and you need 30% deposit to buy a home. And then there is the conflict. It is said that despite all the feel good Aliyah stories, many new immigrants from Western backgrounds (as much as 70%) leave within 5 years despite loving the country. Another issue could also be that many new immigrants like my sister's in law form families with Jewish men from different countries..if you look up waiting times for a spouse visa for America, the waiting time is currently 16 months, there are financial requirements (not super high, but they still exist) and most western countries don't have super easy immigration rules even for spouses of citizens. Many Jewish people tend to have international marriages as it is harder to find suitable spouses within your own small community so Israel is a good place as all Jews can settle there. I mean it works another way too if a British Jew married a Thai woman and couldn't fulfil the spouse visa requirements in the UK for whatever reason, they could theoretically move to Israel under the law of return if they wanted to

The people who stay are those who can't easily go to a western country, like Russians or Ukrainians. Or descendants of Jews from Muslim countries who don't have European or American passports. They truly have nowhere they can easily go.

Interesting to know, thank you. I didn't realise it was so expensive there.
I have seen many many videos of the settlers and there terrible antics. All whilst being protected by the IDF
They give the normal citizens of Israel a terrible name as most who view these videos can't tell between ordinary civilians and the settlers
They terrorise the Palestinians in the west bank. I really wish Israel would step up and do something about it

Comparison to Britain's colonial past is that Israel is a young country and most countries have made huge mistakes earlier in their history.

The UN declared Israel a state in 1948. Mistakes were made after that and I will not deny that..they are still making mistakes. But it is a country just like Singapore is and it should be treated as such.

I can move to Israel even though I am not jewish by birth including with free flights and perks. I am married to a British Jew (by birth) and I also converted to a recognized denomination of Judaism, so doubly qualified. But why would we do so?

We couldn't afford to buy a property in Tel Aviv (average price 1 million) while we currently own a flat in London. DH's current salary as an AVP in compliance in a bank (so not investment banking and not a highly paid function) is equivalent to an average high tech worker salary in Tel aviv (and high tech is the best paid industry in Israel and only 10% of the population work in it, it's very competitive). The main language in Israel is Ivrit which my DH isn't fluent in despite 12 years in Jewish school, so good luck getting a highly sought after job if you don't have the language, contacts or amazing experience! Food in Israel is 30% higher than UK costs...I could go on.

you can imagine from an American's perspective - esp if they are financially established in places like new York,- how the math makes even less viable. Some people still do it though, but out of idealism and certainly not for the financial benefits..there is a saying- if you want to make a million in Israel, bring a million. The settlers are there because of idealism but also because there is a housing crisis in Israel (like many other countries)..as you can see from the stats, this is not due to people from USA or UK largely because the maths simply does not stack up. Israel is incredibly expensive without the pay to match and most Jewish people in UK/USA know this

Sorry meant to tag @feralunderclass

@Time2OpenYourEyes very well put. Thank you.

This.
Extremely well explained. Thank you.

@lavender2023, your comparison to Singapore and Malaysia does not make sense. I'm not British, I'm Indian so can't speak on behalf of British in response to your question "what were we doing in our earlier history".
You're bending the truth and history to suit your narrative.

I thought by birth right anyone who can prove they are Jewish can move to Israel. With lots of perks offered and free flights too. To make Aliyah

I Hope I have spelt that correctly

As the Jewish population grows and more and more Jews especially from America come to Israel, where will they all live?
Is that an issue Israel is having hence the settlers in the west bank? The settlers who have been causing alot of havoc

Malaysia hasn't invaded though. Israel's invasions were in response to the wars. Israel is a state that was created by the UN, the Jews accepted and the arabs rejected it. It is still a legitimate state.

The UK colonized the world before it had to dismantle its empire, we do not say the UK isn't a country because it invaded some countries. Its also why I give Israel some leeway though i am critical and says it could do better. It is a young country. What were we doing in our earlier history?

Many Israelis don't have the ability to migrate to the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Jews

If you look at the table which records paternal country of diaspora origin, while european origin jews number 33.6%, half of that (15%) are from the Soviet Union and a further 8% are from Bulgaria/Romania (ex soviet union). 2.7% come from North america.

The vast vast majority of Israeli Jews originate from the Middle East, Soviet Union and Asia- in countries which are not kind to Jewish people. I would not consider France kind to Jewish people either, they have a real problem with anti semitism. The really comfortable country for Jewish people is USA and to a certain extent UK and as you can see from the stats, they number for 3.4% of Israeli Jews. Western Jews are not living in Israel in any large numbers (and I say that as someone with family there), Israel is for the Jews who are less lucky (and have nowhere else to go). the Jewish agency would probably be angry at me for saying this though but the stats don't lie.

@noblegiraffe
you assume correctly. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

I'm assuming that you also can't see any convincing justification for the awful recent attack by Hamas on the Israeli people.

Singapore isn't trying to take over Malaysian land though.

They did it because they could, and Palestinians could offer insufficient resistance...to fulfill the ambition for a Greater Israel. With the backing of the USA, from where many of the West Bank settlers originate, they are unstoppable.
I remember writing dissertations on this at uni over 20 years ago, studying IR, not much has changed, sadly.
The solution is available when the US compells Israel to accept a 2 state solution, which incidentally is advocated by the UK and EU.

I also thought that Jews lived in Jerusalem in biblical times.

Thanks @lavender2023 for that. If what you are saying is correct though, then that means that a lot of Israelis (whom I'm assuming are all Jews) prefer life in the West, so they can't be that fearful for their lives or worried that they are going to die out as a race? And I'm genuinely not being goady or argumentative here, I think discussion is very healthy and needed. But from your stats it doesn't support the claim that posters are making that a Jewish state is needed in order for Jews to flourish.

I’ve yet to see any convincing justification for what the Israeli forces are currently doing to the Palestinian people, and I very much doubt that I will. Why? Because there is no justification is there?

And for the millionth time no that doesn’t make me pro Hamas or anti semitic.

Singaporeans don’t move into Malaysia taking land/homes though. They aren’t in conflict with Malays and people move freely across the border.

People who question the right of Israel to exist and defend itself don't usually question the right of Singapore to exist and defend itself.. Singapore is younger than Israel and there is literally no cultural reason why it exists- it was expelled out of the federation of Malaysia in 1965 due to a difference in political ideology between the respective leaders (Singaporean leaders wanted a secular multiracial state built on meritocracy, Malaysia wanted a Muslim country with special rights to the Malays to redress colonial injustices). Otherwise the culture across both countries was almost identical. And before the British colonial period, it was all Malay land (albeit a fishing village). It was the British that brought in the Chinese and Indians and malays migrated from the rest of the archipelago. It is now over 70% Chinese and that was actually the work of the British.

Like Israel it is an accident of history like many new nation states. Even if you don't believe in the necessity of a homeland for the Jewish people (which I admit it is a religious concept which I don't fully embrace as a liberal Jew/secularist), it has been a country and UN member for 70 years and should be respected. If it wants to accept Jewish immigrants from all over the world, then that it their policy. Could they treat their non Jewish citizens better, definitely. Could they try harder to repair relations with their neighbours, definitely. But that has nothing to do with whether Israel should exist as a country, it is a country like Singapore is a country, here to stay. New nation states are often accidents of history but now they have been established, their sovereignty should be respected.

The majority of Jews in Israel are not from Western backgrounds- in fact they are the minority. The majority (and their parents) are from ex Soviet Union countries, middle eastern countries or Asian countries like turkey. Where they face genuine persecution. Yes they try to encourage western olim to make Aliyah but it is actually a small percentage that take it up (I do have family there as DH is British Jewish, but they are relatively young so not sure if they will stay there forever as life is much harder compared to USA/UK).. in fact there was a stat in 2015 hat for every 2 British jews making aliyah, there were 3 Israelis moving to the UK. An MO in the Israeli parliament has said that as much as 70% of western olim leave within 5 years of coming. There are no reliable stats as many new immigrants do keep their Israeli passports.

And where did they come from in the first place? What is now Israel? Why are they different to other people living there? If we go back before biblical times. Does ancient Egypt pre date that? Where Jews around then?