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Conflict in the Middle East

Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?

293 replies

MaggieFS · 19/10/2023 17:38

Firstly, please excuse my naivety and note that I don't support either side in the current conflict. I am appalled but the atrocities inflicted by both sides.

The media attention has caused me to read up on the complicated history.

One thing I can't understand. After 1967 Israeli settlers moved into what had been proposed as Palestinian Territories after 1947. Why? At an individual level, were people incentivised?

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lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 22:12

PaminaMozart · 26/10/2023 20:33

Moving to Israel is not something I've ever remotely considered doing,

Isn't it great to have the option!

Unlike the Palestinians and their descendants who still have the deeds to the lands they were evicted from in order to create a land for a people without a land...

There are many injustices in the world and the problem with history is that we will never be able to correct all of them. Israel is a sovereign country now with nuclear weapons. Armed militias will not overthrow them. It is an established country like Singapore or Moldova

All that will ensure is more bloodshed. Justice is important but if we needed to choose between justice and peace, we should choose peace.. What we need is to negotiate a peace between the Israelis and Palestinians to ensure that the Palestinians have a state of their own and to lead dignified lives.

Coughingdodger · 26/10/2023 21:16

Threemangoes · 26/10/2023 21:08

Horrific!
Why isn't Israel declared a terrorist organisation/state for terrorising palestinians civilians since 1970

Why aren’t they being declared terrorists right now is the question.
Politically motivated mass murder of children.

etmoietmoietmoi · 26/10/2023 21:14

PaminaMozart · 26/10/2023 21:05

You have a home, a passport, security....... no one is going to steel your little patch of England - or wherever you are - and you really, really?, cannot see why the Palestinians, who lost everything!!, might want to seek some kind of justice?

Why are you holding me accountable for the circumstances of Palestinians? You literally jumped onto my post and picked out a quote where I said "I've never considered moving to Israel" and where I have also described my fears about antisemitism in the UK.

Threemangoes · 26/10/2023 21:08

feralunderclass · 26/10/2023 19:37

There have been a lot of social media posts of settlers calling for a Nakba.
@Parkingt111 I was listening to Benzi Sanders, who is ex IDF and now is part of a group of ex IDF soldiers who speak out about abuse of Palestinians. Anyway, he was saying that settlers often came onto their IDF radio signals (which is apparently allowed in the case of an emergency) and 'commanded' them to attack Palestinians. He didn't elaborate but it made me wonder what sort of power ordinary people on the (illegal) ground have.

Horrific!
Why isn't Israel declared a terrorist organisation/state for terrorising palestinians civilians since 1970

Threemangoes · 26/10/2023 21:05

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 10:27

In the last Ottoman census (around 1878) the population of Palestine consisted of approx 3% Jews, 2% Jewish foreign born (who were migrants) 5% Christian and the remaining Muslim. In 1948, within weeks of the state of Israel being official, more than 70% of Palestine had been confiscated. Land, homes, schools, farms given over to Jewish people.
What I find most strange is that the posters who claim that the Palestinians are "unreasonable for feeling tied to the land" then go on to say that the Jews were there 4000 years ago so have more right to it. Totally disregarding that this is the home and land that Palestinians have lived (and owned!) for centuries. It totally defies common sense and logic.

This

PaminaMozart · 26/10/2023 21:05

You have a home, a passport, security....... no one is going to steel your little patch of England - or wherever you are - and you really, really?, cannot see why the Palestinians, who lost everything!!, might want to seek some kind of justice?

etmoietmoietmoi · 26/10/2023 20:46

PaminaMozart · 26/10/2023 20:33

Moving to Israel is not something I've ever remotely considered doing,

Isn't it great to have the option!

Unlike the Palestinians and their descendants who still have the deeds to the lands they were evicted from in order to create a land for a people without a land...

Yes, I'm lucky to have the option - unlike my family who were either murdered or expelled from their land. You took my quote completely out of context, so what on earth is your point? OR did you just come on this thread to find a Jew to bait?

PaminaMozart · 26/10/2023 20:33

Moving to Israel is not something I've ever remotely considered doing,

Isn't it great to have the option!

Unlike the Palestinians and their descendants who still have the deeds to the lands they were evicted from in order to create a land for a people without a land...

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 20:14

feralunderclass · 26/10/2023 19:37

There have been a lot of social media posts of settlers calling for a Nakba.
@Parkingt111 I was listening to Benzi Sanders, who is ex IDF and now is part of a group of ex IDF soldiers who speak out about abuse of Palestinians. Anyway, he was saying that settlers often came onto their IDF radio signals (which is apparently allowed in the case of an emergency) and 'commanded' them to attack Palestinians. He didn't elaborate but it made me wonder what sort of power ordinary people on the (illegal) ground have.

That is quite scary. Thanks will look up Benzi Sanders

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 20:07

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 19:37

Thank you

Would you be able to attach the tweet as a screenshot as the link doesn't work
Thank you

It's a clip from an interview but this is the full interview

Israel-Hamas War: Piers Morgan vs Yuval Noah Harari | The Full Interview

Piers Morgan Uncensored is joined by author and historian Yuval Noah Harari, to discuss and debate the ongoing crisis between Israel and Hamas in Palestine, ...

https://youtu.be/SpIIjzS2BIo?si=AfHBmoXQsUM67_i8

feralunderclass · 26/10/2023 19:37

There have been a lot of social media posts of settlers calling for a Nakba.
@Parkingt111 I was listening to Benzi Sanders, who is ex IDF and now is part of a group of ex IDF soldiers who speak out about abuse of Palestinians. Anyway, he was saying that settlers often came onto their IDF radio signals (which is apparently allowed in the case of an emergency) and 'commanded' them to attack Palestinians. He didn't elaborate but it made me wonder what sort of power ordinary people on the (illegal) ground have.

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 19:37

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 19:33

The IDF would protect them as they are Israeli citizens. Sadly the settlements attract the craziest people.

https://twitter.com/harari_yuval/status/1717563204669214869/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1717563204669214869&currentTweetUser=harari_yuval

There are thankfully some non crazy Israeli people who are very wise. Yet people ignore them and prefer never ending war. Yuval Noah Harari (author of sapiens) needs no introduction but I totally agree with what he is saying- when choosing between justice and peace, choose peace..every peace treaty in the world has had some level of compromise. Does that right the historic wrongs and mistreatment of Palestinians, no. But peace is more important.

Thank you

Would you be able to attach the tweet as a screenshot as the link doesn't work
Thank you

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 19:33

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 19:11

@lavender2023 BTW the above post wasn't an attack just continuing from our conversation about the crazed settlers in the west bank
The more concerning issue is that they always seem to have the backing of the IDF

The IDF would protect them as they are Israeli citizens. Sadly the settlements attract the craziest people.

https://twitter.com/harari_yuval/status/1717563204669214869/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1717563204669214869&currentTweetUser=harari_yuval

There are thankfully some non crazy Israeli people who are very wise. Yet people ignore them and prefer never ending war. Yuval Noah Harari (author of sapiens) needs no introduction but I totally agree with what he is saying- when choosing between justice and peace, choose peace..every peace treaty in the world has had some level of compromise. Does that right the historic wrongs and mistreatment of Palestinians, no. But peace is more important.

https://twitter.com/harari_yuval/status/1717563204669214869/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1717563204669214869&currentTweetUser=harari_yuval

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 19:11

@lavender2023 BTW the above post wasn't an attack just continuing from our conversation about the crazed settlers in the west bank
The more concerning issue is that they always seem to have the backing of the IDF

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 19:06

@lavender2023 this was posted today to some of the palestinian residents of occupied west bank

'Run to Jordan before we kill our enemies and expel you from our holy land given to us by God

Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?
Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?
Why did Israeli settlers move into the Palestinian Territories?
25milesfromhome · 26/10/2023 19:02

Twillow · 26/10/2023 15:16

*Sigh.
I was NOT saying it was right, I was saying this is what I perceive will happen due to human fucking nature.
Read it again with your bias off.

*Sigh.
I didn’t ask if you thought what you were saying was right, I asked you what you meant by it and now I know.

Twillow · 26/10/2023 17:19

You actually believe that all the people around the world who support free Palestine want to annihilate all Jews? Not that they abhor human rights injustice and would as equally be appalled by the Holocaust? You also make a massive and dangerous generalisation by equating all Palestinians with Hamas.

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 17:04

Kendodd · 26/10/2023 16:18

Just listening to the athletes Bianca and Ricardo on the radio, and the racism they, and all black people, face in the UK. Bianca talked about leaving the UK to escape the racism. I wonder if the day to day racism just grinds people down more than the threat of bombs would (for Jews in Israel). Also, in Bianca and Ricardo's case, where would they even go? I don't imagine they have a right to live in any African country (?) and the fact that their ancestors may have come from there will count for nothing.

my SILs both made aliyah and I don't think either thought of bombs. the older one went to Israel as a young graduate, at a time(2017) when you could rent a room in Florentin, a very bohemian and rapidly gentrifying area of Tel Aviv for the equivalent of £400. You could rent nowhere in London for that cost.

She is the same age as me and my DH (her brother) is two years older. At that time, we were living in north london in the family home, also starting our careers and earning very little money. There is a program called MASA which offers Jewish graduates internships, accommodation (house share) and free hebrew lessons; and if you are from a family with a low household income (like my SIL), you can even get a scholarship. So this was a chance to get a free place to live independently as a young adult, an opportunity to jumpstart your career, all in a country with good weather! Most mumsnetters would probably approve of their kids signing up! she moved to israel, gained many friends, met her current DH, got married there, got a dog and had a baby in that order. The rent costs has just grown and grown though, that cheap rent in Florentin is but a distant memory. And Aliyah money only goes so far in such an expensive country

In 2017, she probably felt like she was escaping me and DH's fate of being stuck in the family home, though what happened to DH and I in the following years was that we managed to get better jobs, save up £90k and bought a flat in London with the consequence that we have a fairly cushy life now (more so than most young Israelis as London salaries are overall higher with a lower cost of living to salary ratio). But I suppose in 2017, you wouldn't have known that, you would just have seen two young people stuck in the family home.

The younger SIL is in the process of making aliyah, i think what happened was that her flatmate decided to move back to London, she needed a new place to live so she decided to follow in her older sister's footsteps. She still refuses to fly back to London during this period as her application would be voided if she leaves the country plus she has a boyfriend now.

People move to other places for all sorts of reasons and i think for most people, anti-semitism is but one aspect and probably not the deal breaker. For most people, it is a decision made based on the facts that you have at a single point in your life and once that is made, you can't turn back the clock. You may think you can always go back, but in reality, your decisions have consequences that mean that it is increasingly hard to go back to the point from which you started. I think people (who are not in dire circumstances like the Ukrainians) make aliyah because they had a vision of what their life would be in Israel (versus their home country) and they make the decision and then it is hard to see life through any other lens. and once you go down that path, you feel the need to justify your life choices.

Kendodd · 26/10/2023 16:18

Just listening to the athletes Bianca and Ricardo on the radio, and the racism they, and all black people, face in the UK. Bianca talked about leaving the UK to escape the racism. I wonder if the day to day racism just grinds people down more than the threat of bombs would (for Jews in Israel). Also, in Bianca and Ricardo's case, where would they even go? I don't imagine they have a right to live in any African country (?) and the fact that their ancestors may have come from there will count for nothing.

Twillow · 26/10/2023 15:16

25milesfromhome · 26/10/2023 10:16

This is a stunningly bad take and your ignorance is embarrassing. I’ll just point you in the direction of this, from the IHRA (non legally binding) working definition of antisemitism:

  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

*Sigh.
I was NOT saying it was right, I was saying this is what I perceive will happen due to human fucking nature.
Read it again with your bias off.

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 15:05

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 14:50

Thank you for always giving quite a open unbiased explanation and always done very politely 😊 I have learnt alot from your posts about the issues of settlements and also how many Israelis oppose it too. Especially in the west bank

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-wife-and-daughters-were-murdered-in-the-west-bank-but-i-dont-regret-moving-here-p69lrpkp5

in Leo Dee's words. I admit when the tragedy first happened, I was quite judgmental (did not understand why they couldn't just live in proper Israel like my family members who have far less money), but having read these interviews and talked to other Jewish friends, my viewpoint has become more nuanced.

'To answer these questions, on Thursday evening I visited Leo Dee at his home in Efrat, a large Jewish settlement in the West Bank, a mere nine miles from Jerusalem.

Dee, 51, has astonished the world with his reaction to losing his wife and two daughters. A rabbi by training, he has given a series of emotive, electric speeches at funerals and news conferences in the past fortnight. He insists that he feels “no hatred” for the perpetrators, but has also demanded that the world treat these murders with moral clarity; as an evil deed, not a two-sided political act.
Dee welcomed me into his home, a large modern hillside apartment. He insisted I take a plate of sushi from the mounds of food brought in by neighbours. The official shiva mourning period is over, but three memorial candles for Maia, 20, Rina, 15, and Lucy, 48, still sat on the ledge, their wax consumed.
Dee was steady if bright-eyed. He wanted to talk. “This is like my therapy,” he said. His three remaining children, Tali, Yehuda and Keren, wandered in and out of the kitchen, seemingly numbed. A family of seven has become four.

And so they went to Israel, to live their Zionist dream. Unsurprisingly, given his intellect, Dee ended up taking his rabbinical exams at Brovender’s, described as the “Harvard” of religious colleges. The college was located in Efrat, in the occupied West Bank.
Established in 1983, Efrat is one of the most prominent Israeli settlements in the West Bank. It is affluent — a typical four- bedroom apartment costs around £600,000 — and has a population of around 12,000. It has shopping centres and schools and synagogues and is home to a diverse community of modern orthodox Jews, many of whom are from America, Britain or South Africa.
But Efrat is also a gated town in a fiercely contested land. The town itself is quite safe but travelling around the West Bank, particularly during times of strife, can be a hazardous affair.

Lucy felt trepidation when they first arrived, but she fell in love with the place. “This is the story of an ordinary English girl, the girl next door, not some kind of religious nutter,” said Ben Shaw, her brother. “She loved Efrat because it is a kind and empathetic community. And look what’s happened to her.”
After four years in Efrat, the couple came back to London where Dee took up posts as a rabbi, first in Hendon, then in Radlett, a plush appointment in a wealthy area of Hertfordshire.

But Jewish life in London seemed like a pale imitation of the real thing. It was not the place they wanted to raise their children, who had been born in both Israel and Britain. The idea of a purer existence called them back.
In 2014 they returned to Efrat for good, raising eyebrows among some in their Radlett community. Lucy became an English teacher, Dee launched a clean tech investment fund.

Why Efrat? Why the West Bank? Primarily it was the Brovenders connection that brought them back there. But there is also a dynamism to these settlements, a sense of purpose and possibility, building a Jewish future based on an ancient creed and a belief that this land is part of both biblical and therefore modern Israel. Efrat is a town full of children and playgrounds. “It’s just a lovely environment,” said Leo. “You never worry where your children are here.”
And yet according to international law, the Jewish presence here is illegal (something Israel disputes). Nearly three million Palestinians live in the West Bank, suspended angrily in a state of democratic infancy, their lives trammelled and intruded upon by the state of Israel, which has military control over the area, also home to a settler population of some 600,000. There is terror and resistance on one side, reprisal and control on the other. It is an angry stasis.'

‘My wife and daughters were murdered in the West Bank but I don’t regret moving here’

Every house on the Dee family’s street in Efrat still bears an Israeli flag in solidarity. “Our hearts are with you” reads one large sign. “Am Yisrael chai’’ i

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/my-wife-and-daughters-were-murdered-in-the-west-bank-but-i-dont-regret-moving-here-p69lrpkp5

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 14:54

Kendodd · 26/10/2023 13:28

One thing I don't quite understand is why Jewish people feel safer in Israel than in western countries. Israel has always been subject to terrorist attack and has always lived defensively (and offensively) it doesn't feel a very safe country to me. None of my Jewish family (secular, professional jobs comfortable UK life, no strong religious beliefs') have ever even raised moving to Israel as an idea. And these people are only in the UK because our ancestors left central Europe about 100 years ago.

Is the antisemitism really so bad in the UK/US/France etc ?
The only Jewish people I know are as described above so maybe they/we aren't at the sharp end.

I don't feel safer in israel but i am very aware that my synagogue might get attacked (and I go regularly). No kids yet, but may reconsider sending them to jewish school when the time comes (I am from a progressive congregation so jewish school is not a must for me and it probably wouldn't be good for my anxiety levels).

At the same time, I don't really feel you are safe anywhere really- its choosing between potentially being shot in a synagogue attack or dying in a middle eastern war (seems to happen every two years, big or small) as all your neighbours hate you.

For me I would consider other things when choosing where to live- earning potential vs cost of living for example but many Zionists would disagree. Many of them believe Israel is the only place a Jewish person should live and if things are less ideal, then its something we need to change as a people.

Parkingt111 · 26/10/2023 14:50

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 14:46

How is it cheaper land? My SIL lives in the poorest city in central israel and a 2 bed flat costs the same as my London flat in z3 north london with far lower salaries to boot. Rabbi Leo Dee said in an interview that his wife wanted to move to Efrat (settlement near Jerusalem) because she was worried that they would get priced out of Efrat if they continued living where they were in radlett (radlett's average house price was £1.2 million last year). I can only conclude Efrat is extraodinarily expensive which is weird because I thought the whole point of the settlement was that it was supposed to be cheaper than proper Israel (but apparently not).

Many people I know who have moved there do so because being part of the majority does have its advantages. You don't need to explain shabbat or jewish holidays (was unable to get leave for yom kippur this year so fasted while WFH). You have a far larger pool of people to date. If you are observant, you can have a picnic on Tel Aviv beach on shabbat as opposed to walking around a north london park on a rainy autumn day. Many of my SIL's friends were doing it (they went to a religious jewish girls school).

DH and I have never considered it but then again I am a convert (so my connection to zionism is less strong because I was never educated at a jewish school or joined the zionist youth movements). DH said he did feel a strong connection to Israel as a teen (it led him to wear a kippah around for approximately 2 weeks before he gave it up) but he is now largely irreligious. Also we are pretty settled and happy in London.

Edited

Thank you for always giving quite a open unbiased explanation and always done very politely 😊 I have learnt alot from your posts about the issues of settlements and also how many Israelis oppose it too. Especially in the west bank

lavender2023 · 26/10/2023 14:46

IVFNewbie · 26/10/2023 14:30

it's cheaper land.

How is it cheaper land? My SIL lives in the poorest city in central israel and a 2 bed flat costs the same as my London flat in z3 north london with far lower salaries to boot. Rabbi Leo Dee said in an interview that his wife wanted to move to Efrat (settlement near Jerusalem) because she was worried that they would get priced out of Efrat if they continued living where they were in radlett (radlett's average house price was £1.2 million last year). I can only conclude Efrat is extraodinarily expensive which is weird because I thought the whole point of the settlement was that it was supposed to be cheaper than proper Israel (but apparently not).

Many people I know who have moved there do so because being part of the majority does have its advantages. You don't need to explain shabbat or jewish holidays (was unable to get leave for yom kippur this year so fasted while WFH). You have a far larger pool of people to date. If you are observant, you can have a picnic on Tel Aviv beach on shabbat as opposed to walking around a north london park on a rainy autumn day. Many of my SIL's friends were doing it (they went to a religious jewish girls school).

DH and I have never considered it but then again I am a convert (so my connection to zionism is less strong because I was never educated at a jewish school or joined the zionist youth movements). DH said he did feel a strong connection to Israel as a teen (it led him to wear a kippah around for approximately 2 weeks before he gave it up) but he is now largely irreligious. Also we are pretty settled and happy in London.