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Conflict in the Middle East

To think that water occupation is oppressive?

161 replies

Gardenowl · 19/10/2023 10:29

Till now I had read on most of the threads that Palestinians rely on water supply from Israel because they have not bothered to build their own water supply, desalination plants etc. But then one of the posters on another thread posted a link to an Amnesty article about water occupation and I was surprised reading it. Most of the article is about West Bank not Gaza.

Isn't this extremely oppressive? And to take water from your land to supply to the neighbouring country? They must feel so helpless.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/

"In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA."

"While restricting Palestinian access to water, Israel has effectively developed its own water infrastructure and water network in the West Bank for the use of its own citizens in Israel and in the settlements – that are illegal under international law. The Israeli state-owned water company Mekorot has systematically sunk wells and tapped springs in the occupied West Bank to supply its population, including those living in illegal settlements with water for domestic, agricultural and industrial purposes. While Mekorot sells some water to Palestinian water utilities, the amount is determined by the Israeli authorities. As a result of continuous restrictions, many Palestinian communities in the West Bank have no choice but to purchase water brought in by trucks at a much high prices ranging from 4 to 10 USD per cubic metre. In some of the poorest communities, water expenses can, at times, make up half of a family’s monthly income.
The Israeli authorities also restrict Palestinians’ access to water by denying or restricting their access to large parts of the West Bank. Many parts of the West Bank have been declared “closed military areas”, which Palestinians may not enter, because they are close to Israeli settlements, close to roads used by Israeli settlers, used for Israeli military training or protected nature reserves.
Israeli settlers living alongside Palestinians in the West Bank – in some cases just a few hundred meters away – face no such restrictions and water shortages, and can enjoy and capitalize on well-irrigated farmlands and swimming pools."

The Occupation of Water

The legacy of Israel’s 50-year occupation of the Palestinian territories has been systematic human rights violations on a mass scale. One of its consequences is the impact of Israel’s discriminatory policies on Palestinians’ access to clean and safe wa...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water

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Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:32

@swallowedAfly
Exactly. They could have focused on building up Gaza after israel withdrew. Demonstrated what the future Palestinian state would look like. Well, they've demonstrated to Israelis what awaits them if they control the west bank too. Any dreams of a Palestinian state are even further away than they were before.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:30

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:27

Ad hominem attacks are par for the course when you have nothing else to say, twas always thus.

I mean I found your posts pretty uninformed and dumb but having facts to hand I responded to the points made without throwing out insults.

There is nothing to say to someone like you. I could throw all the evidence in the world your way and you would never acknowledge it 🤷‍♀️

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:28

I knew I'd be misinterpreted. I was not saying I agree with the Israeli response but asking people to stretch their imagination and empathy to the reality of the situation if you were in it. I said already I've always felt sympathy and solidarity with the palestinian people BUT imagine the atrocities recently unleashed by hamas happening here and then the rest of the world saying oh it's your fault, just open the borders etc. Would you open the borders to a place that has just demonstrated what it is capable of doing to anyone in your state who they happen to come across given the chance? Regardless of whose fault it is on a grand scale justice balance would you want to open the borders to a place that has elected such monsters to lead them? You have to be realistic about human nature.

Surely these actions of hamas give people a bit of an insight into why Israelis don't want open borders with Gaza? You can obviously list a million things Israel have done wrong and have huge sympathy for Palestinians yet simultaneously understand why your average Israeli doesn't want the kind of barbarism we've just seen unleashed on them?

Also surely people can understand that you're not obliged to provide water and fuel to people who want to kill you in your beds?

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:27

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:19

I honestly can't express how gross your posts are coming across.

Ad hominem attacks are par for the course when you have nothing else to say, twas always thus.

I mean I found your posts pretty uninformed and dumb but having facts to hand I responded to the points made without throwing out insults.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:19

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:13

Us gives israel MILITARY aid. It does not give them any other type of aid.
Yep, israel is rich and thriving all on its own. You know, things like Hitech and pharmaceuticals. Sorry if that disappoints you 🤗

I honestly can't express how gross your posts are coming across.

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:13

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 16:05

If Gazans wish to be as rich and thriving as Israel…

Ha ha, you’re funny. Israel is the biggest recipient of funds from the US worldwide. The US has given them billions. They certainly didn’t achieve their richness by themselves.

Us gives israel MILITARY aid. It does not give them any other type of aid.
Yep, israel is rich and thriving all on its own. You know, things like Hitech and pharmaceuticals. Sorry if that disappoints you 🤗

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:10

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:05

Why don't Israel let water from the West Bank go to Gaza?

How do you recommend that is done exactly?

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:09

MCOut · 19/10/2023 17:51

Formally yes but there are many sources which show that the experience of Israeli Palestinians is not equal to that of Israeli Jews. Given that they’re so negatively impacted by institutional discrimination, it’s pretty gross to trot them out to minimise the treatment of Palestinians in occupied territories. imagine if we did the same with Islamophobia and the Iraq war.

Kind of undermines the apartheid state claim though.
My civil service boss in israel was a Muslim Arab.
When I have birth in Israel, my obstetrician was a Muslim Arab
My university lecturer was a Muslim Arab.
My uni class mates included Muslim Arabs.
Half the pharamcists in Israel are Arab.
An Arab judge jailed the ex president

Check with Yosef Haddad how he feels as an israeli Arab.

The military occupation of the west bank is different and I,.as an israeli citizen, oppose it.
But Israel itself, despite the problems, is not an apartheid stage.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:05

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:03

It might apply to the west bank. It has no bearing on gaza whatsoever.

By the way, these days 85% of israels water is supplied through desalination. Water is no longer an issue thanks to.israeli technology. Israel even gives water to Jordan

Why don't Israel let water from the West Bank go to Gaza?

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 16:05

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:02

Gaza has its own ministry of health. Israel is not responsible for the infant mortality of gazan babies. They'll Gazan government have chosen to use aid money to plan and execute the most sophistication attack on Israel, knowing full well the retaliation that would follow. If gazans wish to be as rich and thriving as Israel and with similar infant mortality, then they need to stop trying to destroy Israel and focus on Building their.own society and (hopefully) state eventually.
Palestine is not rhe poorest country out there and no reason for any Palestinian child to suffer from malnutrition based on tbe resources available.

If Gazans wish to be as rich and thriving as Israel…

Ha ha, you’re funny. Israel is the biggest recipient of funds from the US worldwide. The US has given them billions. They certainly didn’t achieve their richness by themselves.

Gardenowl · 20/10/2023 16:05

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:02

Gaza has its own ministry of health. Israel is not responsible for the infant mortality of gazan babies. They'll Gazan government have chosen to use aid money to plan and execute the most sophistication attack on Israel, knowing full well the retaliation that would follow. If gazans wish to be as rich and thriving as Israel and with similar infant mortality, then they need to stop trying to destroy Israel and focus on Building their.own society and (hopefully) state eventually.
Palestine is not rhe poorest country out there and no reason for any Palestinian child to suffer from malnutrition based on tbe resources available.

Did you read the article or the thread at all? Have you been specifically employed to spread disinformation and have a limited repertoire of responses to everything?

Read the article and understand how some Palestinian households spend half their monthly income to buy the expensive water that Israel sells.

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Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:03

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:00

What's not true? The report by Amnesty International? Why would they lie?

It might apply to the west bank. It has no bearing on gaza whatsoever.

By the way, these days 85% of israels water is supplied through desalination. Water is no longer an issue thanks to.israeli technology. Israel even gives water to Jordan

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:02

Gaza has its own ministry of health. Israel is not responsible for the infant mortality of gazan babies. They'll Gazan government have chosen to use aid money to plan and execute the most sophistication attack on Israel, knowing full well the retaliation that would follow. If gazans wish to be as rich and thriving as Israel and with similar infant mortality, then they need to stop trying to destroy Israel and focus on Building their.own society and (hopefully) state eventually.
Palestine is not rhe poorest country out there and no reason for any Palestinian child to suffer from malnutrition based on tbe resources available.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:00

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 15:58

Not true. Gaza is not occupied by anyone and has a border with Egypt. Israel withdrew from gaza. There was nothing stopping them building desalination plants. They chose to put their resources into terror tunnels and missiles.

Instead of demonstrating how Palestinians could build a thriving and democratic city state and what we could expect from a Palestinian state in the west bank, they chose the path of continued conflict. Their dream of statehood is so much further away now.

What's not true? The report by Amnesty International? Why would they lie?

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 15:58

Not true. Gaza is not occupied by anyone and has a border with Egypt. Israel withdrew from gaza. There was nothing stopping them building desalination plants. They chose to put their resources into terror tunnels and missiles.

Instead of demonstrating how Palestinians could build a thriving and democratic city state and what we could expect from a Palestinian state in the west bank, they chose the path of continued conflict. Their dream of statehood is so much further away now.

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 15:53

But it's exactly that. Gaza has had self rule for 17 years. Surely if you can build soohisticated tunnels, build missiles and get hold of advanced weaponry you would want to free yourself of reliance on your mortal sworn enemy.
There was zero reason gazans couldn't build desalination plants. They just preferred the cheap water from demon israel.

Gardenowl · 20/10/2023 15:44

An attempt at humanising.

One of the posters linked to this post when the conflict started. Now I google this everyday to find out if Belal is still alive. I had almost given up hope when he posted again a couple of days ago mourning the death of his student, Bisan who was killed hours after she put a post up mourning the death of one of her other teachers - Mohammed.

Mohammed died on October 13 in an Israeli strike. He had co-authored a scientific paper with Belal but died before it went online.

To think that water occupation is oppressive?
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Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 15:12

Gardenowl · 20/10/2023 15:06

This video and the story about the 7 month unborn child being killed in the strikes has temporarily left me unable to think.

@swallowedAfly to answer your question I would still not want babies, children, unborn children to be killed as revenge.

In UK if someone enters my house with an intent to rob me or even kill me the law still doesn't allow me to use unreasonable force leave alone going back to the robbers place and killing his whole family. If I use more than reasonable force it is me who will be prosecuted.

How come Israel to kill as many as they want to root Hamas out? If a group of Hamas terrorists hides in the centre of Bristol do you think UK government will allow Israel to bomb Bristol to smithereens? Why is Palestinian life and blood so cheap?

Why are Israel casualties showed as humans with actual life and Palestinian casualties just as a number? Both losses are terrible and should be given equal dignity.

I think that this is a big problem. The dehumanisation. I saw a video of this wee boy of about two his eyes as big as saucers unable to stop shaking with fear, he was literally vibrating. There will be 1000s of little boys and girls just like him all around Gaza. It is heartbreaking. I wish more people would see them for what they are, real people suffering.

Gardenowl · 20/10/2023 15:06

flufferknutter · 20/10/2023 14:52

There are problems due to the practises of the far right government.

This video and the story about the 7 month unborn child being killed in the strikes has temporarily left me unable to think.

@swallowedAfly to answer your question I would still not want babies, children, unborn children to be killed as revenge.

In UK if someone enters my house with an intent to rob me or even kill me the law still doesn't allow me to use unreasonable force leave alone going back to the robbers place and killing his whole family. If I use more than reasonable force it is me who will be prosecuted.

How come Israel to kill as many as they want to root Hamas out? If a group of Hamas terrorists hides in the centre of Bristol do you think UK government will allow Israel to bomb Bristol to smithereens? Why is Palestinian life and blood so cheap?

Why are Israel casualties showed as humans with actual life and Palestinian casualties just as a number? Both losses are terrible and should be given equal dignity.

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notsoready4school · 20/10/2023 14:40

I think the part of this I don’t understand is that it seems that the West Bank Palestinians had nothing to do with the actions of Hamas but are painted in the same light and oppressed nonetheless . Difficult to draw a comparison in the Scotland simplistic example but I guess equivalent to punishing Wales for what Scotland did. There are shootings and settlers rampaging West Bank homes after the actions of Hamas and it is being allowed and supported by the government

MissyB1 · 20/10/2023 11:48

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 11:05

But you avoided my actual question. What would you, as a human being being, parent, citizen etc have wanted if it was your neighbouring villages subjected to that attack? Like literally if the town down the road from you had had hundreds of people slaughtered in their beds and others kidnapped and raped and paraded naked through the streets, despite all of your historical understanding and sense of justice, what would you want done to make sure your daughter wasn't next?

what I would not want is thousands of innocent people, including many many children and babies, slaughtered as revenge.
I really wouldn’t because ultimately that will bring no comfort whatsoever.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 11:47

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 11:05

But you avoided my actual question. What would you, as a human being being, parent, citizen etc have wanted if it was your neighbouring villages subjected to that attack? Like literally if the town down the road from you had had hundreds of people slaughtered in their beds and others kidnapped and raped and paraded naked through the streets, despite all of your historical understanding and sense of justice, what would you want done to make sure your daughter wasn't next?

This goes both ways though, you can see that right? Israel have been killing Palestinians for years. They have been controlling Palestinians for years. Locking their children up and torturing them. Locking adults up without trial and torturing them. The IDF have raped Palestinian women. Israel have had Gaza under an air ,land and sea blockade for years. Israel steal homes and land in the West Bank. Israel demolish schools in the West Bank. Israel control their water. Shoot at them as they try to farm land. Etc etc
Literally they have been happy for years to keep 2.2million people just over the fence under collective punishment for 17 years, happy to go about their lives as 2.2million people just down the road suffered at their hands.

What would you do if you were a Palestinian? How would you feel living a life so unstable under the tyranny of Israel? Personally I don't think that Hamas did the right thing. I don't think Israel are doing the right thing either. You seem to think that violence is the right answer though. How can you advocate for violence and mass killing on one side but say it is wrong the other way around? Either you are on the side of barbarianism or you aren't. If you think just Israel is entitled to commit mass slaughter then you should be asking yourself some serious questions.

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 11:35

@swallowedAfly I went to Israel as an intern in an Israeli HR NGO. I went in not really siding with anyone. I came out with very strong views based on what I saw.
The Palestinians have been horribly oppressed, dehumanised, murdered, tortured. Land, livelihoods confiscated. Displaced (ie forced at gunpoint) from their homes. Children denied school access, workers prevented from travelling to their jobs due to strategic road blockades. Ill people prevented from accessing medical help (due to need for permits). 50% of Palestinian children have PTSD. Many are malnourished. A child in Gaza is ten times more likely to die in infancy than one a few miles away in Israel.
The notion that Israel is a fair and just state is horrifically wrong. I'm so shocked at posters saying they (Palestinians) should just accept things and get on with it. Israel incentivize 20,000 people from around the world every year to come and live there. This is at the cost of Palestinian homes, land and lives. These immigrants know this, and are complicit. We then wonder why some of them commit acts of terror. It will never equal what the Israeli government (with the help of Western governments) have done to them. The stats speak for themselves, the death/injury figure for Palestinians is huge in comparison.

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 11:15

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 11:05

But you avoided my actual question. What would you, as a human being being, parent, citizen etc have wanted if it was your neighbouring villages subjected to that attack? Like literally if the town down the road from you had had hundreds of people slaughtered in their beds and others kidnapped and raped and paraded naked through the streets, despite all of your historical understanding and sense of justice, what would you want done to make sure your daughter wasn't next?

I’m not in the military or government so can’t be expected to come up with the solution.

But as an observer, for starters, perhaps I’d have tried to avoid promoting constant hostilities with my neighbours over many years, thus ramping up the hatred and violence and minimising any chance of cooperation between the two states. I’d also have tried to be on good terms with many of my other surrounding neighbours.

Secondly, if I was aware that tensions were currently at an all time high I’d have properly guarded my borders.

Thirdly, I would not take revenge on for the actions of criminals by murdering thousands of innocent children, thus ensuring that any chance of future peace with any of my neighbours is smashed to pieces for generations to come.