Page 3 | To think that water occupation is oppressive?

Gardenowl · 2023-10-19T09:29:38+00:00

Till now I had read on most of the threads that Palestinians rely on water supply from Israel because they have not bothered to build their own water supply, desalination plants etc. But then one of the posters on another thread posted a link to an Amnesty article about water occupation and I was surprised reading it. Most of the article is about West Bank not Gaza. Isn't this extremely oppressive? And to take water from your land to supply to the neighbouring country? They must feel so helpless. [[https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/]] ^"In November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain. Palestinians living under Israel’s military occupation continue to suffer the devastating consequences of this order until today. They are unable to drill new water wells, install pumps or deepen existing wells, in addition to being denied access to the Jordan River and fresh water springs. Israel even controls the collection of rain water throughout most of the West Bank, and rainwater harvesting cisterns owned by Palestinian communities are often destroyed by the Israeli army. As a result, some 180 Palestinian communities in rural areas in the occupied West Bank have no access to running water, according to OCHA."^ ^"While restricting Palestinian access to water, Israel has effectively developed its own water infrastructure and water network in the West Bank for the use of its own citizens in Israel and in the settlements – that are illegal under international law. The Israeli state-owned water company Mekorot has systematically sunk wells and tapped springs in the occupied West Bank to supply its population, including those living in illegal settlements with water for domestic, agricultural and industrial purposes. While Mekorot sells some water to Palestinian water utilities, the amount is determined by the Israeli authorities. As a result of continuous restrictions, many Palestinian communities in the West Bank have no choice but to purchase water brought in by trucks at a much high prices ranging from 4 to 10 USD per cubic metre. In some of the poorest communities, water expenses can, at times, make up half of a family’s monthly income.^ ^The Israeli authorities also restrict Palestinians’ access to water by denying or restricting their access to large parts of the West Bank. Many parts of the West Bank have been declared “closed military areas”, which Palestinians may not enter, because they are close to Israeli settlements, close to roads used by Israeli settlers, used for Israeli military training or protected nature reserves.^ ^Israeli settlers living alongside Palestinians in the West Bank – in some cases just a few hundred meters away – face no such restrictions and water shortages, and can enjoy and capitalize on well-irrigated farmlands and swimming pools."^

FOJN · 20/10/2023 17:04

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 11:05

But you avoided my actual question. What would you, as a human being being, parent, citizen etc have wanted if it was your neighbouring villages subjected to that attack? Like literally if the town down the road from you had had hundreds of people slaughtered in their beds and others kidnapped and raped and paraded naked through the streets, despite all of your historical understanding and sense of justice, what would you want done to make sure your daughter wasn't next?

I'd be put of my mind with grief and baying for blood but I am not leading a government.

As an ordinary citizen I am not responsible for making decisions which may prevent or lead to a wider conflict which could kill many more citizens.

If I was leading a government I hope I would take advice from suitably qualified people so that I could avoid breaking multiple international laws, committing crimes against humanity and provoking my hostile neighbours.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 17:02

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:49

Well should we say oh well in that case you can totally understand hoards of men attacking a dance party in the dessert and mowing down kids with machine guns and kidnapping, raping and executing them? Should we say oh well then it's totally fine to murder whole families in their home?

Of course not to either scenario but that is what goes on.

So what do you suggest? So much hurt and resentment and deep wounds - just sitting in your armchair and blaming one side from your safe distance and peaceful nation achieves what? What's your realistic solution?

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Now? I don't know. There is a whole generation of children that have known nothing but captivity, known nothing but oppression. Now they are indiscriminately killing entire families and destroying as much of Gaza as possible. By doing that Israel have put themselves in an awful spot. I would suggest they start small. Get rid of the illegal settlements, stop all control of the West Bank. Pay reparations to the children of Palestine. Stop controlling building materials at the borders so that Gaza can rebuild. Let Gaza have access to more than a tiny strip of sea. Small steps to build up trust amongst the youth whose childhoods have been marred by their collective punishments.

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:53

Why do you want to excuse the hideousness of what was done?

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 16:52

unheard of.

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:52

sprigatito · 20/10/2023 16:48

You've got the cart before the horse there. Hamas are in power because the Palestinians have been living under brutal, violent oppression since they were removed from their homes and forced there. Much like the IRA, the PKK etc - a reasonable person can condemn the disgusting atrocities these groups commit while retaining an understanding of the appalling conditions that led people to feel they were the only option.

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I am absolutely retaining that. I'm looking at the reality of the situation and depth of hurt and trauma all round. Most on here just seem to be enjoying saying how evil one side is but what does that achieve? How does this get resolved? Are one side supposed to just roll over and accept that lots of them will get murdered and slaughtered but eventually it might balance out so just open the border? Who would do that?

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 16:51

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:45

Have you not watched the video footage? It was literally released by Hamas to brag of what they'd done and the support they had.

I don't disagree that Palestinians have been treated awfully too. I'm just pointing outside both sides have cause to fear and resent each other and to want to defend themselves.

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Any reports of that video have pointed out that the source is unverified. We know from past atrocities that producing 'evidence' of the enemy is certainly not heard of.

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:49

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:46

So you have to be realistic and not expect Israel to abide by International humanitarian rights? Because they are surrounded by some people who act badly? You have to expect them lock up women and children in a small strip of land and control everything they bring in? You have to expect them to arrest and torture children? To steal land? To shoot at farmers? I don't agree tbh. I think it is just another form of barbarianism accompanied by excuses. I don't think there is any higher moral ground here to be claimed by Israel.

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Well should we say oh well in that case you can totally understand hoards of men attacking a dance party in the dessert and mowing down kids with machine guns and kidnapping, raping and executing them? Should we say oh well then it's totally fine to murder whole families in their home?

Of course not to either scenario but that is what goes on.

So what do you suggest? So much hurt and resentment and deep wounds - just sitting in your armchair and blaming one side from your safe distance and peaceful nation achieves what? What's your realistic solution?

sprigatito · 20/10/2023 16:48

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:43

No of course it's not but if the UK had elected a terrorist group sponsored by a state whose parliament stands up and chants 'death to france' would you really blame France for wanting control over our air space?

You've got the cart before the horse there. Hamas are in power because the Palestinians have been living under brutal, violent oppression since they were removed from their homes and forced there. Much like the IRA, the PKK etc - a reasonable person can condemn the disgusting atrocities these groups commit while retaining an understanding of the appalling conditions that led people to feel they were the only option.

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:46

Surely when you see stuff like that romantic notions of honourable freedom fighters have to be questioned?

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:46

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:40

Those people, in my post, clearly refers to Israelis but I suspect you're suggesting I'm referring to Palestinians and dehumanising them?

So you have to be realistic and not expect Israel to abide by International humanitarian rights? Because they are surrounded by some people who act badly? You have to expect them lock up women and children in a small strip of land and control everything they bring in? You have to expect them to arrest and torture children? To steal land? To shoot at farmers? I don't agree tbh. I think it is just another form of barbarianism accompanied by excuses. I don't think there is any higher moral ground here to be claimed by Israel.

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:45

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 16:42

Human rights organizations have documented the alleged rapes of Palestinian women in detention centres, along with sexual abuse of boys and sodomy of men by IDF and local police.
Is there an actual verified source for these raped and paraded around women? The 'beheaded babies' claim had no evidence, and was later retracted by the White House.

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Have you not watched the video footage? It was literally released by Hamas to brag of what they'd done and the support they had.

I don't disagree that Palestinians have been treated awfully too. I'm just pointing outside both sides have cause to fear and resent each other and to want to defend themselves.

nc14 · 20/10/2023 16:44

@swallowedAfly Hamas was elected the following year. Israel has already set its terms by then. Perhaps the disingenuous withdrawal is what made people vote for Hamas (I don’t know if that is the case but it would certainly make sense).

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:43

No of course it's not but if the UK had elected a terrorist group sponsored by a state whose parliament stands up and chants 'death to france' would you really blame France for wanting control over our air space?

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 16:42

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:37

In which Palestinian village have women been kidnapped, raped and paraded around the streets to be spat upon?
(Presumably you mean by Israelis, not the honour killing stuff)

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Human rights organizations have documented the alleged rapes of Palestinian women in detention centres, along with sexual abuse of boys and sodomy of men by IDF and local police.
Is there an actual verified source for these raped and paraded around women? The 'beheaded babies' claim had no evidence, and was later retracted by the White House.

nc14 · 20/10/2023 16:40

@Meshigenus The UN and many NGOs still regard Gaza as occupied. Even though Israel renounced control in 2005, they have maintained control over its airspace, borders, electricity and water. Imagine if, say, France controlled all of the UK’s airspace, borders, electricity and water - is that freedom?

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:40

Those people, in my post, clearly refers to Israelis but I suspect you're suggesting I'm referring to Palestinians and dehumanising them?

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:39

This kind of right/wrong, black/white, simple thinking and ideas just doesn't work on the ground. People will want to defend themselves from people who hate them regardless of whose fault it is.

If my daughter had been kidnapped, raped and murdered and I knew about it because a video had been released of her naked corpse being driven through the streets with the crowds cheering allah akbhar at the site of her desicrated body what would I want?

And yes you can say what about the Palestinians who have seen their children killed by air strikes etc too.

There's no simple black and white solution to the profound amount of harm and trauma people have experienced on either side.

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:38

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:33

I don't know. I have actually lived, and will live again, in this region of the world and maybe that changes things a bit. I love the culture in that region in many ways but am also horrified by some aspects such as, for example, the complete disbelief in rape and utter conviction that any woman who is out enjoying herself was clearly asking for it even in relatively moderate middle eastern nations when you really get people talking and being honest. No sane woman would go to the police if she was raped because she's likely to get worse at the police station.

Whether their own or their parents and grandparents or Britain's fault people find themselves loathed and hated and seen as fair game for rape, murder and parading naked through the streets to the cheers of the crowd. You have to be realistic about what you can expect those people to be open to in those circumstances.

Oh my goodness. 'Those people', who are those people?

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:37

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 16:33

Like what is happening to Palestinian villages in the West Bank?

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In which Palestinian village have women been kidnapped, raped and paraded around the streets to be spat upon?
(Presumably you mean by Israelis, not the honour killing stuff)

feralunderclass · 20/10/2023 16:36

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:33

I don't know. I have actually lived, and will live again, in this region of the world and maybe that changes things a bit. I love the culture in that region in many ways but am also horrified by some aspects such as, for example, the complete disbelief in rape and utter conviction that any woman who is out enjoying herself was clearly asking for it even in relatively moderate middle eastern nations when you really get people talking and being honest. No sane woman would go to the police if she was raped because she's likely to get worse at the police station.

Whether their own or their parents and grandparents or Britain's fault people find themselves loathed and hated and seen as fair game for rape, murder and parading naked through the streets to the cheers of the crowd. You have to be realistic about what you can expect those people to be open to in those circumstances.

Where are you referring to?

Coughingdodger · 20/10/2023 16:36

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:13

Us gives israel MILITARY aid. It does not give them any other type of aid.
Yep, israel is rich and thriving all on its own. You know, things like Hitech and pharmaceuticals. Sorry if that disappoints you 🤗

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Israel is the biggest recipient of financial aid from the US since WW2. Currently they spend most of it on the military but from 1971 to 1997 they received significant economic assistance.

To think that water occupation is oppressive?

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:35

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:28

I knew I'd be misinterpreted. I was not saying I agree with the Israeli response but asking people to stretch their imagination and empathy to the reality of the situation if you were in it. I said already I've always felt sympathy and solidarity with the palestinian people BUT imagine the atrocities recently unleashed by hamas happening here and then the rest of the world saying oh it's your fault, just open the borders etc. Would you open the borders to a place that has just demonstrated what it is capable of doing to anyone in your state who they happen to come across given the chance? Regardless of whose fault it is on a grand scale justice balance would you want to open the borders to a place that has elected such monsters to lead them? You have to be realistic about human nature.

Surely these actions of hamas give people a bit of an insight into why Israelis don't want open borders with Gaza? You can obviously list a million things Israel have done wrong and have huge sympathy for Palestinians yet simultaneously understand why your average Israeli doesn't want the kind of barbarism we've just seen unleashed on them?

Also surely people can understand that you're not obliged to provide water and fuel to people who want to kill you in your beds?

Genuinely, no. I can never, ever imagine thinking that controlling the lives of 2.2billion people was the solution to anything. I can't imagine living a lovely life knowing right next door there are 2.2billion people, 1 million children that my country is collectively punishing. That in itself is barbaric. I just can't imagine living a lovely life in y country and being cool with knowing that I am contributing towards that. Like what was their plan? Keep them locked up forever? I honestly I just cannot ever fathom being that cruel.

Meshigenus · 20/10/2023 16:35

Gruntsandgroans · 20/10/2023 16:30

There is nothing to say to someone like you. I could throw all the evidence in the world your way and you would never acknowledge it 🤷‍♀️

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Someone like me? Hmm, interesting assertion there. Still the ad hominem, persohal attacks.
I won't make any cogent points since you wouldn't even understand them 🙄
People like you 🙄(aka people who don't agree with you, i assume?)

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 16:33

I don't know. I have actually lived, and will live again, in this region of the world and maybe that changes things a bit. I love the culture in that region in many ways but am also horrified by some aspects such as, for example, the complete disbelief in rape and utter conviction that any woman who is out enjoying herself was clearly asking for it even in relatively moderate middle eastern nations when you really get people talking and being honest. No sane woman would go to the police if she was raped because she's likely to get worse at the police station.

Whether their own or their parents and grandparents or Britain's fault people find themselves loathed and hated and seen as fair game for rape, murder and parading naked through the streets to the cheers of the crowd. You have to be realistic about what you can expect those people to be open to in those circumstances.

WhiteHorseSpirit · 20/10/2023 16:33

swallowedAfly · 20/10/2023 11:05

But you avoided my actual question. What would you, as a human being being, parent, citizen etc have wanted if it was your neighbouring villages subjected to that attack? Like literally if the town down the road from you had had hundreds of people slaughtered in their beds and others kidnapped and raped and paraded naked through the streets, despite all of your historical understanding and sense of justice, what would you want done to make sure your daughter wasn't next?

Like what is happening to Palestinian villages in the West Bank?