To TTC or not to TTC, that is one of the many questions...

A new duvet cover? Does he secretly want to set up a B&B? I wish DH gave a shit about our decor!

Unless you have a really bad cover currently....like a Playboy bunny one...or purple silk a la Austin Powers...

DH nearly went out today to buy new a new duvet cover (I managed to put him off the idea by, er, laughing at him.) Admittedly, a new one won't go amiss but for gods sake! Potential buyers will not be put off by our choice of bedding will they! Thank god I just went ahead and booked the visit from the estate agents anyway as this could go on forever!

And breathe...

and he was a private detective too for a while... am sure he is FULL of stories (but not sure how much I want to hear a lot of them!)

The cardigan?! You mean THE cardigan? Oooh! It would be a close call, what with LST starting IVF next month (very excited on your behalf LST!)

Yes, Suerock, we have seen a property - it is the only one we have seen so far, admittedly, so we are going to see more this weekend. However, others in our price range are either already done up, a hell of a lot smaller, on a busy road (no good with two cats) or a quieter road but with NO outside space etc etc. The one we have our eye on needs loads of work, but has the potential to be gorgeous when it's done. We can afford to take two months out when we move so would put our stuff in storage and stay with my mum for two months (no more or we'd all drive one another insane) and do what we can, which would hopefully be quite a lot. I think potential buyers for this house have been put off by the amount of work which needs doing - it hasn't been touched since the 70's and then they made a crap job of it - so needs gutting and starting over.

Anyway, tell me about these cardigans?

Evening all,

Interesting to read what you think about that book, HP - I've glanced at it on Amazon but always been put off by thinking it was a bit earth-mother-anti-conventional-medicine-ish. But maybe I should give it the benefit of the doubt. However, I think I know when I'm ovulating and am fairly in tune with my body (or so I think at the moment at any rate!) - just need to get DH in tune with his too - is there a TCOYF for Men?

ILs - mine are very lovely, very eccentric and very keen to have another grandchild! Nuff said.

LOL at showering together LST! Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings and all that....

Good luck with the house stuff confused. I think I must've missed a bunch of posts - have you got your eye on a particular property then? Put in an offer? Exciting stuff!

Sorry I wasn't around yesterday evening - I was splodged in front of the TV surrounded by a mound of rainbow coloured knitting yarn and am now up to the armpits of the back of The Cardigan. The race is on, girls!

Am sat in a cafe bar down the road as have left DH sanding a sill above the french windows. I had never noticed it needed sanding, stripping and repainting on account of it being invisible unless I was 7 foot tall, on a ladder in the garden or being dangled out the upstairs window head first. Still, DH has noticed so am biting my lip and leaving him to it. (Madness!)

That book, the fertility one, sounds vaguely interesting but, indeed, a faff. Maybe I would be more inclined to look more into such things if I didn't have things to constantly monitor on account of being a T1 diabetic, but as it is I am embarassingly slack about such things. It is no exaggeration to say that my period takes me by surprise most months and I haven't the foggiest about my, urgh, cervical mucus either. And as for the postition of said cervix, I know where it is but that's about it! I wonder if deciding to start a family would mean that I turn into a temperature monitoring / mucus spotting obsessive to maximise chances? Perhaps if it would increase the chances of a BFP but I think I'd just stick to the lots of shagging for a bit first!

Sounds like you all have some lovely in-laws. I guess mine are okay, they are just NOT my kind of people and DH always acts differently too when he is with them. They all sit together for hours making bland small talk but noone ever seems to have an opinion (might be different to someone else's opinion so they keep such thoughts to themselves) or any feistyness about them. MIL once asked me what my grandad did when he worked and when I told her (lots of things, including running an illegal casino and selling porn from the back of a launderette - this venture folded when porn was legalised) she smiled in a fixed way and has never asked me about anyone else!

I think MIL is all for our imminent move but she just see's the negative (or potential negative) in things and then gets in a fret about it. This in turn affects DH and so on and ON. He said when he came back that he has assured her that it's okay and we're not doing anything silly and seemed to think she got the message. I do hope so!

LST I love the story about your neice inadvertently announcing you were going for a shag! Ha! And too! Sounds good that your MIL is quite direct in some ways as at least you can be straight with one another. Am I right in getting the impression you can tell her to butt out too if you wanted or needed to?

Hmmm, families - both your own and one's you've acquired, can drive you mad. I think I may have come across more cross than perhaps I was - I find DH's parents very steady but that, with the endless worry (over a man who has never really given them cause to) is a pain at times. Also, and of course they don't know this, this fretty needy mentality ended up having an adverse effect on DH as he ended up with both destructive relationships and a stress problem - he was told this by a psychiatrist he ended up seeing. I can't remember the specifics but it was linked to his parents. (Might ask him later but it's a tricky one to bring up - watch this space.)

He's just walked in so am going to shoot but will be back again in an hour or so

Hi all,

Actually back from a week staying with my in-laws, well my MIL anyway, and two SILs and their kids (well, most of them were only there for three days, to be fair). I have to say, though, that I'm very very lucky with mine. They are lovely, and live in Ireland so couldn't be controlling if they tried. I guess some people might find my MIL a bit intrusive - she's quite direct, and has asked about the IVF, but then I did talk about it in the first place with her, so I can't really complain. And I'm quite open about things and am probably at one end of the spectrum over privacy (i.e. ridiculously over-share with almost everyone - a huge surprise to you all on here, right?! ) so she and I are fairly like-minded. Was the tiniest bit miffed that she didn't wait until I raised the whole IVF thing this week, and as she asked directly I ended up telling her I was having it next month (something I haven't told my own mother, and don't intend to as I can't cope with their expectation and possible disappointment). I think it's probably good we don't see too much of them, as there would probably be lots more of this - but if she has a fault, it's one I totally understand (though hope I'm never intrusive with other people), so don't mind too much. And DH's dad and siblings are lovely. His dad doesn't say much about anything personal but is nice and affectionate. I always feel a bit dull when I'm with that family though, as it's big, and there are big personalities in it, and there's a kind of value placed on wit and banter and storytelling (it's such a cliche about the Irish but really true about them) - something I like about my DH but don't feel I can always compete with. But I'm quite close to a couple of his sisters, and also his brother's wife (who is also English), so that has helped. And I definitely feel close to his parents and feel that if anything happened to mine, they would be even more important to me.

We had a slightly hilarious time this week, though - it was prime TTC week (sure there's a code for this but can't remember it!!) and so we were trying to do the deed at least a bit (last chance, after all!), and one day wanted to do it one afternoon as we were going out later and DH at least was going to have a few drinks. So I said I was going to have a shower before going out, and DH came into the bedroom with me (it's an en-suite). I ended up shutting the door with his little niece (who has just turned three) in the corridor and she went running back to the assembled family saying 'Two of them are going to have a shower together. Two of them are going to have a shower together.' x 100! I don't know what they thought but it felt to us that it must have been totally obvious what was happening!!

Really really hope you get the house, confused - it really sounds like he might drop the price - he must be wondering what's going to happen after this time. And if the other house is only £2k more, with so much less to do on it, that's got to be a powerful argument for this one being 'worth' less (although what a house is 'worth' is such a fiction anyway in any context). I'm with HP (and indeed you!) on not doing too much to your current one - people like to have some sort of project in mind when they look round a house, and are looking for basic soundness rather than anything too finished. Or that was us, anyway.

I have that book, HP! I have to say I didn't fully engage with it or go through it thoroughly, in part because I didn't seem to conform to the descriptions entirely closely and didn't always manage to identify my fertile days - though missed the bit about them being so much fewer for those in their thirties so perhaps that's why. I do worry that if I really tried and paid more attention I could (or could have) avoided the need for IVF. But I did sort of raise this with the doc and she said that I was ovulating and that after four and a half years it was odd that it happened naturally (and I did do peeing on sticks for a few months to identify ovulation...). I now (perversely, after all my wailing about the wait) almost want a couple more months to go all out trying natural methods and cleaner living. But I think I've probably been as sober and diligent as I can be recently (not that that's perfect by any means).

Anyway, sorry for mammoth mail. Welcome rimmer and deliriouscow and everyone, and good luck to you with recalcitrant DHs (in fact that's most of us, let's face it!). If mine can semi-come round, anyone's can, trust me. Really sorry about the whole possible redundancy thing, Suerock (and attendant effects...) - must be really hard. Hope you can find some distractions while you have the difficult wait.

Hope you're all keeping warm - back home now and the house of course has got unbelievably cold in our absence. Going to try to light a fire in our grate for the very first time (the chimney's been swept, don't worry folks!) tonight though so quite excited about that (little things!). xx

My impression of TCOYF, by HoneyPetal SparklePants.

I have had a first pass of TCOYF, as it is a pretty large beast to take on board (or 'internalize' as she would put it....).

I have to say it was an interesting read. Just out of interest, is anyone using it on here, either to prevent or encourage baby-formation? And I assume Im not the only one of us to read it, has anyone else?

Anyway, mainly for Confused as I know she hasnt read it for sure, the book descibes the Fertility Awareness Method, or FAM. The author takes great pains to distinguish between the rubbish rhythm method, which uses past fertilty signs (like length of cycle etc) to predict in future cycles when you are safe to have unprotected sex. Rather, FAM requires that you monitor daily signs as and when they happen to make a decision on that day whether to bag-up or abstain or go for it. The three signs are 1. Cervical fluid (or as I prefer, eggy juice) 2. Basal body temp (your core temp on waking) and 3. Cervix position. Seriously.

So far, so simple. The interesting bit for me was that these things actually do occur - I had picked up a lot of stuff on MN but it was interesting to see it spelt out. Your eggy fluid apparently changes consistancy around ovulation to the famous twangy egg white stuff, your temperature increases just after ovulation and your cervix bounces around in there as well. Im trying to cast my mind back 17 years to see if I recall any funny juices, but cant seem to recall ()!

She provides explanations as to why these patterns are seen and gives you charts to plot them all out on. I am loving the idea of making a graph out of my monthly cycle . What you are required to do is take your temperature at the same time every day, on waking, and check your gusset (or other more intimite bits) for the flow of juices. Cervical position is optional.

The tone of the book is very passionate and in my opinion a little bit too dismissive or critical of conventional hormonal methods that have worked for many women, myself included, and have prevented many an unwanted pregnancy or upsetting abortion. She raises many interesting points about the politics of contraception and questions why the focus seems to mainly be on womens bodies when men are fertile every day of their adult lives. But thats quite a big question!

So, my summary is:

1. Am I glad I read the book - yes. I learnt a lot.
2. Would I use it for my sole method of contraception - no. (More below)
3. Would I use it to try and get a BFP - yes, but maybe not straight away.
4. Would I recommend it - yes, its worth a read for sure.

The reason I wouldnt fancy relying on it 100% is Im not sure about the first half of your cycle, building up to ovulation. You have to really know when to stop the unprotected loving and switch to abstainance or whatever. Im not sure my interpretation of eggy juice would be up to that! But maybe an experienced person could do it.

Saying that, if and when I come off the pill, I will definitely give parts of FAM a go to see what is happening in my body. Cervical position will have to forver remain a mystery to me though. No way.

Yes, it was lovely thanks! Good to see friends and catch up.

Ooo, other peoples families. Can be a tricky one, epsecially men and their mothers. But at the end of the day you are his wife, and his mam isnt going to be living in the house in DreamTown by the river, so its up to you and DH which way you want to go. It is frustrating when an external person has undue influence on something that should be between the two of you. Maybe once he gets home and away from the fretting he will be able to put it in perspective and the two of you can have a rational discussion about what has been said. If you have the desire to, you can address her concerns regarding the house, show her the checks etc, but if you dont think it will make any difference because this is really all about her not wanting you to move, then perhaps you both will have to just let it go and focus on the goal - finishing your current house so you can start your new life. Speaking of which, lets hope he hasnt cooked up a massive list of problems to 'fix' in your house . When I was looking round places, I just wanted to see a nice, clean happy-feeling place with no obvious 'red flags' like an ancient boiler, crumbling window frames or half done DIY jobs (but thats because we wearnt looking for a fixer-upper). You never know what someone is looking for.

I've known my in-laws since I was a wee lass, so we have a slightly different relationship. They are very kind people who lead a very simple life. They have had a lot of stuff to deal with over the years, like health stuff, and sometimes they are infuriating, but I couldnt be without them. I hope they think of me as a daughter, and I try hard to deal with their 'little ways' in the same way I accept my families - with a straight face and a small rant to DH!!! The only bone of contention was their previous putting first of DHs brother and their undeserved worship of him, but that may be coming to an end. Oh, and the baby thing.....

Hello,
Nice meal out? I ended up going to bed about 10pm last night (was feeling a bit flat but not really sure why) and was out at 9.30 on a massive walk (now have very tired dog.)

Today is meant to be spent cleaning and tidying as we have someone from the estate agents coming round on Tuesday. DH is on his way back from his parents (he stays with them when he see's his son) and said we've loads to do to get it ready. I can tell already that over 70% of what he is going to think needs doing, I won't agree with. People, ourselves included, get a feel for a house regardless of decor (and most want to decorate it in their own taste anad style anyway) and as long as it doesn't stink, isn't faling down and similar it'll be fine.

DH's parents annoyed me by proxy too last night and I am starting to see them as a bit controlling. His mother is nice enough in many ways but very timid and a 'fretter' (this word was made for her!) This fretting then tends to influence DH as he doesn't want to upset her / them (his dad isn't as bad) Apparently last night she was 'fretting' about us potentially moving to this house we like as it's by a river and was getting all upset. DH then got upset as she was etc etc etc and rang me up to vent. I just got annoyed - neither of us have a long track record of stupid decisions and this is something we are THOROUGHLY looking into before we make our minds up finally. His parents though just don't want us to, and think we should look elsewhere as there are plenty of others etc etc. When DH said we are, but will probably go for this one etc she gets upset. Again. Argh!

Rant over! I can't obviously say to DH how infuriating I find her / them (they are VERY conventional, very bland but their hearts arer in the right place, even if they do spend half their time worrying needlessly about nothing). I think he might too but it's different for him as they're his parents. I'm used to a banter with my family whereas his all sit quietly making polite conversatiuon about bland things - it can be hard work!

So, ladies - tell me about your in-laws....?

Just got in from a meal out, so have prob missed you. Will be around tomorrow at various points! Hope u are ok and haven't been too dismayed at the doggies conversational skills!

Anyone around? Home alone and, lovely as she is, my dog isn't much of a conversationalist!

Rimmer - phew! As I am not a Red Dwarf fan I was a trifle confused! HP's advice sounds good, far better than mine anyway. Good luck with it and keep us posted (if you want to, of course!)

HP I am obsessed with houses now - I have decorated all but the kitchen of our new house, not that it is even our house yet and maybe will never be. The owner said he's prepared to be 'flexible' re price but not sure how flexible. As it needs so much doing - bathrooms moving from the attic to the first floor for example, all the carpets replacing, the kitchen totally replacing, possible new and better boiler etc - we can't pay as much as he's after as we then couldn't afford to do it up. Also, there is a house opposite which would just need cosmetic work which is on for £2k more. The house we like has been on the market for more than 6 months but I am not sure if not enough people are buying, viewers have been put off by the amount of work or that it is by a river or that he won't accept more than, say, £5k under the asking. I guess time will tell but I do hope we get it!

Thanks for what you said re the forthcoming parties and the potential to not be as footloose and fancy free, I wasn't sure if it made me sound like a twat or not. However, what you said re rubbing bumps made me shudder a bit! Am a bit weird, on and off, re the whole pregnancy thing (when you can see them move - eek) but also as S was really into the idea of LO's when we met and carried on being for quite a while until I, er, managed to drum it out of him (kind of anyway, he also possibly went off the idea a bit on his own too.) And, while he has no aversion to the whole bump business, it would feel really bloody weird getting him to rub mine, all things considered! Hmmm...

I am getting more and more curious about this book. I can't be arsed with any faffy stuff but find the fertility stuff (like the eggy juice business you mentioned) quite worryingly interesting. Frigging biology, eh!

I sent my mum the link I found about diabetic births - [http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol12No4/diabetes.htm here] - as I was chatting to her about 'things' after I saw the consultant on Friday. As others have mentioned it, yes it does make it more 'real' as such but I have also stressed that we are not actually doing anything about it (yet...?) My mum said that if we wait for everything to be 'perfect' we'll never do it, and so many others have said so too, but am now also - and only have myself to blame as been reading up on it - worried about timescales and things. I think I feel rushed as I have never wanted to do this before, and still not as keen as perhaps I should, but can't leave it for much longer (esp with increased likelihood of things like miscarriages etc first due to diabetic aspect, not to mention the bloody age one too. )

Humph.

Rimmer (nice, closet Dwarf fan in my youth!) - if you are worried about bringing up the subject of TTC with a hostile DH, here are my top tips that I have learned through bitter experience:

1. Think about what you want to say beforehand.
2. Don't mention it in the middle of a row, or in the days following a row, when tensions may be high.
3. If you sense the mood is mellow, gently broach the subject perhaps opening it up gradually, like 'Oh, I hear so-and-so is pregnant' and get chatting that way. If you meet a brick wall, then you can decide how to proceed.
4. Keep it light and see how the land lies, make it a bit jokey and not too serious at first, and then take it around to a more serious discussion if it feels ok.

You may have to accept that he doesn't want to deal with it right now, but he should at least listen to what you have to say. You have every right to be heard in a relationship, but so does he. It has taken me and my DH four years to be able to even have a positive discussion about the subject (see earlier post), and thats with neither of us having strong feelings either way. If you are usually good at communication it may go much better than how my life has been recently, but if you are not good at communication, use this as an opportunity to improve. After all, if you do have a baby you are going to need to be a strong team. Recent chats have made me feel a bit closer to DH even though we haven't come to a conclusion.

Well, that's my twopenneth, feel free to ignore me or take the tips if you want to. Alcohol does sometimes help Good luck!

confused- sorry am very bad at typing . i will try that approach. name choice is a reference to red dwarf not odd sexual practices!!

I'm back, on the iPod so forgive the brevity!

Exciting news that the move is still on, fingers crossed that you get the house you want. I'm sure your house is lovely, and people are going to know what to expect from an older property, I know I did in those brief weeks we were looking! Just keep that fire going in this weather and that will be enough to tempt people alone. There is such a scarcity of nice properties at the moment that you may find it goes quite quickly.

It's not daft to think about how pregnancy/babies would influence what you could do in the coming months and years, and you are allowed to feel whatever it is you feel. While it's true that the complete flexibility would be lost, for big dos I'm sure where there is a will there is a way. I'm sure S just wants to see you happy, whether that happens to be dancing on the table with a pint in your hand or rubbing a bump and getting him to feel the baby move.

The Book has occupied me for a bit of this evening, and even in that there are reminders of our advanced (!) decrepitude, as for example 20something women produce 5 days of fertile eggy juice, we on the other hand get one or two days. Great. Thanks, biology. Anyway, was thinking it might be an interesting book for you to read if you are still 'withdrawing' as the Signs of Fertility could guide your choices. On the other hand, some bits look like a faff on.

DH has appeared, better go. x

Oooh, yes do keep us informed on the book, HP as I am somewhat curious! (And would rather hear about twangy mucus through you rather than find it myself!)

Sat at home with a roaring fire and a sleepy dog and getting excited about moving. Keep looking at bathrooms and things (see what we can get on Ebay and places) to do up 'our' new place. Not that we have this place, or even know if we will ever have the one we're on about, but I am getting carried away with the ideas about what we can do with it. As I have probably said, it needs gutting and starting over but has lovely things in it like stained glass window's and things that we could make the most of (house was last touched in the early 70's.) Booked the estate agents to come over on Tuesday so am going to clean like mad over the weekend, and DH has been given a deadline so is (hopefully) less likely to carry on doing jobs that don't actually need doing. Our house is over 120 years old so people aren't expecting it to be like a Baratt one are they? That's my argument anyway.

Coming down with you, eh? Have to say, it's weird having this sudden green flash after so long of being totally against the idea. I think I have also been spending far too much time reading about fetility rates over 35 etc etc. It does make for scary stuff, although I don't need to tell you that do I?! Thing is, once we move it wouldn't be so much of a potential fuck up (cash wise) but there are also other things going on that I don't want to be unable to do. This is going to sound ridiculous but hear me out - I want to be able to go to London as and when I feel like it, esp due to the situation with S (well, really mainly due to the situation with S) and would hate to either be unable to due to small person or, be able to go but unable to drink / feel tired etc due to being pregnant. He is also planning a massive party as it may be his last and I can't imagine having to be sober for that (it'll be a whole weekend of a party) - it would be torturous. This would be in September, by the way, which is kind of ages. I know it's ridiculous to potentially forfiet the chance of being a parent, blah blah blah, for the sake of a party but that's how I feel. A child would hinder some very important things (ie being able to go off on a whim) and I don't think I want that. In fact, I know I don't want that. However, that is a small aspect of stuff coming up or going on, and there are 101 other things going on instead. Does one weigh out the other? No idea!

As for 1BEM - good idea to wait till your DH is out as you've got so far it would be madness to put him off now!

The Book has arrived. Blardy hell, it's huuuuuuge. And graphic. Photo of twangy mucus, anyone? Have read a bit. She seems very.....passionate about the technique. And is dissing my lovely pill, so will reserve judgement. Full review will follow, in due course.

(it was only £13 on Amazon, and is a lot of book for the money. Heck, I just spent £14.50 on a mascara)

Green twinges, Confused? Tell me more! And if I go down, I'm taking you with me, my lovely . Any word on the move, did you get that house you wanted?

Haven't seen any of 1BEM yet, they are recorded, but will wait until DH is out to watch them. Bit too much for him, I think.

Will be interested in your opinion of Taking Charge of you fertility because I've read some mixed. You've got to save money somewhere in this darned process so if it's no good I could save sixteen quid

Rimmer (odd choice of name if you don't mind me saying!) I'm not sure I get what you're on about when you typed 'I want to nut have some issues that I want to talk about and DH sometimes takes concerns as not wanting to have a baby' - I presume you meant 'not' rather than 'nut' but still not sure what you mean (sorry, it may well be me being thick!) As for advice re TTC, what's always worked for me is getting drunk and blurting it out, however this is not really a recommended grown up approach! Quite the opposite in fact!

One Born Every Minute is fascinating to me. All of it, but especially the more background stuff - like the dad's and how they deal / cope with it all. It must actually be quite tricky for them as they can't do much and seeing someone you love both in pain and highly irritable with it would make you want to do something surely? I was very interested to watch Joy last night as she is diabetic, albeit a Type 2 rather than my Type 1, as I heard that you are more likely to be closely monitored. Not that she was really, but I did wonder if she was once the induction had worked. With the other girl, Sam wasn't it, and the staff sudddenly leaping into action with fixed grins and talking in semi-code (ie 'Category 1 c-sec' rather than 'argh, get the bugger out NOW!!') I got quite nervous. My sister works in a hosptial - assists in theatre - and she said that when maternity goes wrong it goes really wrong (or has the potential to) and I can well imagine it. It must be so bloody scary seeing staff appear from all directons and you get whisked off asap. And, despite trying to seem calm you must be able to pick up on the panic, surely?

I have no idea why, it could be numerous things (imminent house move, appt with consultant, whithering ovaries or reading about them or even the One Born Every Minute programme) but I feel almost (ALMOST!) green at the moment. Call it a green tinged shade of amber...

any advice on how to broach the subject of TTC again? i want to nut have some issues that i need to talk about and DH sometimes takes concerns as not wanting to have a baby