Secondary Infertility and IVF

Hi Clure, nice to see you again. Great news that you have a plan, I think coming to a decision is half the battle. The tests that DH and I have both had so far have been private. Not that we've got money to burn or anything, but i find the NHS system for non urgent problems to be very frustrating and this process is stressful enough without adding to it. I'm sure you'll be able to find people willing to help.

As for advice on Guys etc, I'm no help I'm affraid. You might have more luck posting on the big Assisted conception thread or trying on the Fertility Friends site which I believe has lots of info on clinics. Would love to hear how you get on so please keep us updated.

Wiggle, I think we do lead double lives! Mine sounds just as hectic as yours and practically the only time DH and I get to chat is if he phones me at work! Good for you putting the brakes on the IVF clinic. That really is horribly fast and although for some people that might be a god send, its not if you're not sure its the right thing to do. I can't believe that they refered you when you DH has only one set of test results. Its not even giving him the chance to find out if it is a transient problem. Pleased that you're going to have a retest when it suits you, you will after all be the ones paying so you want to make sure its meaningful.

hello, I posted back in December (on page 1 I think!) Sorry, I kind of lost the thread (and the plot!!) Been catching up with your posts and just popped on to say hi.
Briefly, we have DD who will be 5 next week and have been ttc #2 for nearly 2 years. I'm now 42. Various hormone test suggest low egg reserve and my consultant said back in september ivf with donor eggs. Just been to see him again last week and not having any joy, seeing different registrars and being told different things is very frustrating. Eventually had a chat with the fertility nurse who was brilliant. DH and I have decided to try for some private tests/consultations to see if we are able to use my own eggs for ivf. Last ditch attempt for us. Anyway hoping to get the AMH test done. Nurse suggested Guys. Anyone had any experience? Going to give them a call in the next couple of days. I don't know what the procedure is for getting appointments etc.
Well ladies sorry for big post and ramblings!

Hello ladies. Goodness, you turn your back for five minutes and the thread goes bananas!

Huckabees, your birth story sounds awful. No wonder you want to look at your notes. How frustrating to not be able to get at them. Do you think if the request came via your GP/ hospital consultant you might have more joy? I really appreciate you sharing your story, you seem to have a good attitude to your situation and it is helping me see that I can too, eventually!

Wiggle, have you managed to chat with your DH yet? I am interested about the Gavin and Stacy thing, I've never seen it so I'll have to have a google and see if I can find it!

Thanks for the semen analysis list Earplugs. I'll need to ask DH to get his figures so we can take a look. You sound like you had a hard pregnancy too, you are brave to be trying to give it all another go.

As for me, I'm feeling pretty rubbish as nothing is happening. My af is due soon (strange that we're all getting in sync!). I think that I actually conceived this month(added two cup sizes to my boosies), but all my symptoms are going now. Af now due anytime. I've started to try and be a bit more proactive about tests and things and my DH has agreed to go for a repeat analysis. I also rang my GP and got the numbers from my tests. They said everything was ok but looking at them my prolactin is high but still normal and my progesterone is low but also still normal. Hopefully when DH has hais tests we'll get a referal through to our local centre. I'm a bit concerned about my progesterone level as mine was 33 and I've read that 50 is a better level to maintain a pregnancy. I 've been wondering if I have a luteal phase defect so I really want to talk to the consultant. Apparently agnus catus can help so I'll be getting started on that I think!!!

Wiggle, LOL at the cat and the pony.

Ha ha ha yes you are right Wiggle, who would want a good mother. Mine gives me and my sister plenty to complain about so wouldn't want to deny DS that! Just wish he could keep his tantrums until we're behind closed doors rather than in full public display! I shouldn't care what other people think but it just seems that he saves his naughty behaviour for when he has a decent audience. Fingers crossed thia is just a phase.

Very true what you say about analysing everything to death because of the situation we are in. I feel like my head is going to explode with all the baby related 'stuff' swimming around constantly. It seems the more you look, the more you find so a lot has to be said for blissful ignorance!

I also watched Gavin & Stacey, good wasn't it! If only we can be as lucky as that.

Let us know how you get on speaking to your DH.I'm sure once you've both come to a decision, you'll feel like you've got control back.

Just wondering, did they not want to repeat your DH analysis before refering you to the IVF clinic? I guess its good that you've not got a big waiting list, but no wonder you're feeling pressured!

Hi Ladies,
Huckabees, thank you very much for sharing. Your birth story is shocking and it is awful that you don't have access to your notes to at least try to understand why things turned out the way they did. I completely understand the 'what if' feelings as well. After all the investigations and procedures you have been through, you are one hell of a brave lady I am not in the slightest bit surprised that you called it a day. I hope that you have a lovely day with your DS.

I have been for an internal scan this week and whilst all looks OK in terms of being able to conceive, my cervix is very short (as result of procedures I've had and DS delivery). Even if I am lucky enough to get pregnant by any method, I'm in for a hell of ride with cervical stitches and continual monitoring. I also developed PE with DS which meant 2 weeks being hospitalised before he was born so that will also complicate things. If I was someone else reading this I'd be thinking that I needed my brain examined to want to even put myself through this.

Am also having a crap week too Wiggle.Sorry to hear you also are feeling low. Why do they insist on repeating tests over and over again? Presumably these test will all have a cost and it must be so frustrating to be poked and prodded about yet again. I hope you manage to have a good chat with DH tonight.

I haven't even thought about schools yet but as DS is at nursery day care now anyway, it won't be such a big transition for us (she says!). I hope you get the school that you're after.

I too am expecting AF any day, have PMT from hell and DS has been behaving like Damian the past few days I just don't know what has got into him. So generally feeling like a crap mother too as the cherry on the top. Sorry everyone, just realised what a miserable post I've just written!

Wiggle, poor you, that sounds rough. Just remember, there's no easy answer as to whether to go ahead, so don't beat yourself up about 'making the right choice'. The choice itself isn't the key, it's your attitude to the choice once you've made it. Hope that doesn't sound preachy.

We were lucky with schools as we are in Scotland, and most people simply go to their own catchment school here, and you're supposed to be guaranteed a place (it doesn't always work out, but usually does). Some people ask for placing requests but it's not the norm. My DS is now in Primary 3, so I've got used to him going off every day and having the day to myself - it has allowed me to explore quite a few things. I work part-time, I did an OU course, I joined the gym - usual stuff really, and although I did miss him at first, it is nice to get a bit of my old identity back (I think most SAHM mums would agree with me on this).

As for DS being an only and getting spoiled, I don't know whether he is or not. I probably don't stress as much as some about how I'm going to pay for things like swimming lessons or new shoes, but re toys and so on, I think he's probably somewhere in the middle. I think your own family values tend to kick in in this respect. I was more worried about making sure life didn't become 'all about DS' but to others it probably seems as if it is. I mean, when you share stories with other mums you're going to talk about your only and no-one else, aren't you?

Our somewhat flawed solution to take the heat off DS a bit was to get a dog - the dog has done a lot of things a sibling would. He's stolen and chewed precious toys, his needs have to come before DS's sometimes, like if he needs a walk, and he gets quite a lot of attention. On the plus, he's good company for DS, who like to snuggle with him in bed (dog loves this, as he isn't allowed on anyone else's bed - hope no-one from the pet thread is reading, as I may get told off!), and DS thinks of him as his best friend.

Anyway, I've done it again - written a huge long post and hogged all the attention. I really need to learn how to be more succinct. LOL

By the way, it's DS's birthday tomorrow (how ironic is that after telling his whole birth story) and he wants to get up an hour earlier than usual so he has time to play with his presents before school. So I'm off to set the alarm and will enjoy a long leisurely breakfast, if I'm awake enough, instead of the usual scrabble and run.

Earplugs, my scarring is apparently all over the place . My cervix is fine, but my right ovary is about 6 cm out of place and stuck to my stomach wall with an adhesion (so any eggs coming from that side are not going anywhere near my Fallopian tubes. Large adhesion where my C Section scar is and some other adhesion which meant the consultant couldn't even get his camera in position to view my left ovary (I had a laparoscopy).
They also did the die test thing (hysterosalopingogram, I think it's called - can't believe I remembered that) where they squirt purple die into your Fallopian tubes and see if it comes out the other end. He said nothing came out so my tubes are very likely blocked too (more scarring?) although sometimes the muscles just contract and that stops any die getting through.
I had a bit of a complicated C section with DS, as he had got well and truly stuck in my pelvis and so there was quite a lot of pushing from below and heavy duty tugging from above to remove him, and the incision they'd made in my womb tore and so was extended by a few inches.
There was also a bit of a panic when it sounded as if the junior doctor who was assisting in the surgery, and who had been doing the 'pushing baby's head from below' was going to put her hands inside me i.e. into the incision and I heard the anaesthetist saying 'No, you can't go back in the field'. Not sure whether she had already done that and possibly passed on some infection somehow. Anyway, I suspect my body was more than usually traumatised, hence the scarring, but I guess I'll never know. I had my DS in the USA, so don't have any copies of my medical files - tried to get them but the hospital was useless, so I gave up in the end.
It is one of those situations where you can go around wondering whether the doctors made a mistake, whether I made a mistake (not allowing them to section me when they first wanted to and trying for a further 1.5 hours to push him out - well, actually that was my husband that did that, thinking that's what I wanted, when by that point I would have done anything for the whole labour/giving birth thing to be over - LOL), or whether it would have happened anyway.
But at the end of the day, it's happened and I have to live with it, and, as I said in my first post, deciding to move on from it has made me stronger I think.
Oops, sorry if that was TMI, and for offloading the birth story - haven't told that one for a while.
Feel free to ask any questions. I know exactly what you are all going through. It's hard, but you'll get through it whatever the outcome, and it does get easier.

Crikey Wiggle, that sounds horrific you must have been terrified. Just goes to show that actually it can be a powerful thing, must admit I have been a tad sceptical wondering if its effects are all in the mind,but that reaction certainly wasn't! I know what you mean about the cost though lilly, mine charges 30 pounds for an hour which is quite reasonable compared to some, but if you double that for both me and DH, 60 is far too much to shell out each week.

Right anyhow ladies,2009 WHO references published Dec below. Just wanted to say no idea how they come to these figures, seems quite odd that they are able to lower the limits but guess there must be science behind it...

Volume: 1.5 ml or more
pH: 7.2 - 8.0
Total Motility: 40% or more
Progressive: 32% or more
Vitality(%live) 58% or more
Antisperm Antibodies IgA: less than 10
IgG: Less than 10
Count per ml: 15 million or more
Total Count in ejaculate: 39 million or more
Other Cells - Round cells: less than 5
Polymorphonuclear leucocytes: less than 1
Morphology: Kruger Strict Criteria: 4 or more
Teratozoospermia Index: 1.6 or less

Hi all. Thanks for all the acupuncture stories. I'm still mulling it over, mostly due to the associated cost to be honest. I never knew that it was possible to have a reaction like yours Wiggle. Forewarned is forearmed and all that I guess.

I would be interested in seeing the new guideline limits earplugs. DH has to put another sample in soon, but he is really dragging his feet about it. I think he maybe doesn't want to know the results conclusively.

Hi huckabees. Nice that you came back to see how we were. You've made a brave decision. I'm begining to wonder if we are not too far off being in the same place tbh. I'm not at the months stage but maybe just another year I think, then I'll probably call it a day. I've had 1 mc in 2 years (and I would suspect some others that really didn't get far too). It keeps me thinking that there is really something not right genetically. Keep hoping we'll get lucky again though. I wonder if you can pay for genetic testing privately?

Hmm

Oooh blimey Wiggle, what type of reaction did you have with acupuncture if you don't mind me asking? That sounds really quite frightening! I've only had one noticeable reaction when she put a needle in my wrist and it sent very strong shooting pains & pins and needles into my hand, it wasn't nice but she managed to tweak it and it eased off. Haven't had it with any of the other points or in fact with that point again.

The advice about outdoor walking sounds very sensible for the men although I'd have my work cut out getting DH out in this weather!

Also something occured to me the other night that I forgot to mention about your test results. You probably know it already but the WHO guidlines for semen analysis changed in Dec 09 and the 'acceptable limits' have been significantly lowered. Rather than 20 million count, its now 14 or something. I've got the new limits on our report, if you haven't already got them ( or anyone else), let me know and I'll put them up. Doesn't change our results, but can make the target just a little closer to reach.

Hi Huckabees, I'm so pleased you are still around. I had a question that I didn't ask last time but wish I had. You mentioned that your problems were down to scarring, can I ask if this was anything to do with cervical scarring at all? (Don't need to answer this if too personal).
The reason I ask is that I had a cervical tear during the delivery of DS which was repaired in theatre. Haven't had any problems since but wondered if this may also have an effect on my ability to conceive? Not even sure what the docs could do to find out?

Starting to think I could switch brain off of TTC thoughts before I come up with any more potential problems!

We're all allowed to feel crap Wiggle so just indulge in whatever takes the edge off for the time being. From my experience its never to early for a Gin, infact I've got a bottle of tonic left over from Xmas, I may just join you in a little one as a Friday night unwinder!

I think this journey is always going to be a rollercoaster, there are going to be positive days and down days. We just have to hope the down ones don't last that long. File the report away and don't torture yourself by constantly looking at it. Those results were then (quite a while ago) and this is now. And you've made lots of positive changes since then so who knows!

I do still find it really odd this whole secondary infertility thing. I mean, how can so many couples fall pregnant so easily first time and then have so many problems a second. Can it really be that much of 'lucky strike' that it happened first time round? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Lily, I have been having acupuncture the past few weeks. I was worried also but it isn't painful. Am trying to get DH to go as well but he isn't that taken with the idea.
I'll give anything a go me, can you tell

Hi lily - I posted earlier in the thread, but as you will see, no 2 no longer an option for me, but I've been checking in to see how everyone is getting on.

Hurray, we have a 'minibus' now. I couldn't ever settle with the big buses either.

Oh, Wiggle sorry to hear it's all a bit crap at the moment. It is definitly not too early for gin! I have actually been terrible over Christmas at trying to be all 'healthy conception diet' and alcohol free. I must try harder this month, after I've had gin with you. Make mine a double! When do you have your next clinic appointment? How is your DP taking the news?

Hi Huckabees, nice to see you.

Earplugs keep us posted on the pycnogenol. If it gets a good review I might give it a go. All I can say about the preconceive stuff is that little goes a long way!

Has anoyne tried acupuncture (you or you DP?) I was thinking of giving it a try...but I'm not sure about the pointy things though!

My gin cut-off (or should that be start-point) is usually 5pm, but this is an exceptional circumstance.

Yes it is great to have our own little coven! I was always a bit frightened of the huge buses so this great.

The Fertility Blend looks good Wiggle but you're right, they are not cheap and the money soon racks up as the months go by. I had been recommended the Zita West supplement or the Maralyn Glenville but I thought both were overpriced and when you look at what they contain, its no different to the normal stuff you can pick up in Boots. So i did! Have been taking the Femmibion ones purely because they are the only ones I have found that don't contain iron as it gives me horrendous constipation! (TMI alert from me again.

I've got DH on the Wellman and have ordered some of the pycnogenol so I'll let you know how it goes.

The Pre-Conceive is quite watery isn't it Lilly? I'm not a lubricant expert (funnily enough!)but I was suprised how very runny it is.

Pretty fed up of the snow now for sure. I hate driving in it so have been working from home which is impossible with DS home. Just wish it would go so that we can get back to normal.

I sometimes also wonder why I want to rock the boat by having DC2. I was never an 'Earth Mother' type with DS, had horrible pregnancy, terrible birth and found it all very overwhelming, exhausting and quite frightening. But, bit by bit they get older and you become more confident and I sort of feel like I want to try out all the knowledge that i've gained on another DC! I'm sure I'm also suffering from selective memory loss because there are times I swore I would never want to do it all again, and here I am just wishing for the chance!

Hello everyone, we seem to have ourselves a lovely little coven in here now!!! Thanks for starting the thread wiggle I've been needing something like this for ages now. I know what you mean about enjoying being a family of three, I do feel like that at times too and it makes me wonder why I want to rock the boat.

Earplugs I have taken the bull by the horns with the conceive plus stuff and have been inserting it (sorry tmi for some). I got a couple of syringes from work and just filled them and did the deed. It sort of feels like it's helping but I can't possibly imagine why I feel that it is, maybe it's just because I'm actually doing something!

Interesting about the pycnogenol, I'm going to check it out.

Glad to hear everyone has had an enjoyable Christmas. It was lovely to have a white christmas, but I'm fed up with the snow now! At least it is keeping my DH at home for more of the necessary