To TTC or not to TTC, that is the question... as Hamlet sort of said about something else entirely

And precious few eating establishments allow cats inside. Frankly, its discrimination. Why should people who have cats be excluded from eating pizza? And why should I have to train my cats not to run around and meow loudly. Bloody people who dont have cats, they shouldnt be allowed on CatsNet. Trolls!!

I meant to say pizza place not just pizza!

Imagine - 'We take our dog to this particular pizza as we can go there, unlike other places. Yes, she was barking and running about but if you don't like it, go elsewhere. After all, you can go to most restaurants but only a few allow dogs.'

Hmmm

Yes, I didn't mention it for just that reason!

Can you even imagine the anger of the AIBU people if they knew we were trying to understand parenthood through our feelings for our pets? Shudder. Maybe they would think we are indeed trolls (still cant get over that) and should have our babymaking equipment removed.

Yes, I think you've got it there, about the first few years being extreme (good and bad.) I also know the last sentance you wrote made sense, as I know it due to my, er, dog.

Border collies are the best and worst of all breeds I think. She is neurotic, demanding, jealous and obsessive. However, she is also loyal, extremley intelligent, funny and affectionate. I have had several friends ask if they can walk her just for the hell of it (she's really good fun.)

Sigh...

From my observations, those first few years seem to be full of extreme highs (birth, love, cuddles, words, walking etc) and extreme lows (birth, exhaustion, poo, screaming). Thats what it seems like from the outside, to me. I think you put in hard work for the things you love, and it makes the hard work seem worth it.

PS. We had a border collie when I was little, she was craaaazy. Would just go, poof, in a straight line, given half a chance. And no amount of exercise ever tired her out. The cats are much less intense.

Although I am rather partial to cats too (well, animals I suppose) so maybe I am just a Crazy Animal Person instead? (My friend who owned the nursery I ended up working at, more or less by default, said I am good with 'short things' whether they are animal or human.

YTD - I think you do have a point (at least a hope so!) re the (and yes, I hate this phrase) 'me time.' Or, at least I hope so! Back to weird dog things; it has been very very hard work with our dog (ex sheepdog border collie) and we have had many issues and spent a hell of a long time sorting things out (or trying to.) 18 months ago I was walking round our local park with N (the dog) on a lead crying and thinking 'what have I done!' However, now, I would not change her for the world. Not that I ever really would have done, but I did think we'd made a terrible mistake with getting a border collie. Seeing her now, after all the hard work, can make me SO proud and we have a real bond. I can't say it's easy, and it certainly ain't plain sailing, but my god, I love her to death!

Would having a baby make this pale into comparison...?!

More or less, yes!

Evening ladies!

So:

1. We have agreed to stay away from the angry AIBU threads.

1. We are currently wildly swinging between red and green by the minute, although the greenies seem to be intensifying.

1. Confused is a Crazy Dog Lady, YTD likes dogs but has a cat, and Im a Crazy Cat Lady. Suerock's animal status is currently undefined.

Am I fully caught up?

I'm aware I'm sounding really green at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I still think we can't afford it, I'm terrified of giving birth, I can't bear the idea of not getting enough sleep and I worry that the offspring might grow up to be horrid and I might not like 'em.

I have no idea if I'm right - I'll be a bit gutted if I get one and the magical maternal transformation I'm expecting doesn't actually happen!

I don't have a dog - DH and I discussed it but felt we weren't in a position to be responsible for a dog (and we are a child!?! )but I am a bit of a dog person, nonetheless (I hope you're not going to strike up a "You don't have a dog, what would you know about dog?" attitude with me!). part of the reason we felt we couldn't commit to a dog was the time and responsibility it would take. I think having a dog does mean you're halfway there - you are already used to being responsible for a living dependant and arranging your life to meet his/her needs. I think with a child your planning would just step up another level.

I think there is nothing wrong with not wanting to lose your 'me' time. I really like it when i get the house to myself (or me and the cat - he's the other reason we couldn't get a dog), having time to potter and enjoy my own company. But I don't think any of the perks of being independant and unfettered really outweight the potentially life-altering joy of being a mum.

Hey YTD, I too will be hiding in the safety of this thread (although I did post on the hounded one, but I think I can speak on that one with some authority, being a 'dog person' an' all!)

I hope you are right about the lack of long lie in's etc paling in the comparison to the joy of a little 'un. I think this is one of the factors that bothers me, what if it doesn't pale and is actually a fucking nucience? I would hope that biology has something in this, and this is very unlikely but I suppose we don't know till we try it, do we?

I love my own space, and time to do just what I want, and feel weird about giving this up. DH is away this weekend and I do look forward to a weekend without him, although I do have my dog so my time is not completely my own. In fact, it's about 50/50. Does this mean I am half way there with the baby thing anyway due to having a dog, or having a baby would be a Bad Thing as so much of my time (planning etc) is revolved around my dog.

I hope some of you are dog owners, or at least like them, so I don't seem really weird! (Mad Dog Woman alert...)

Confused I think we all need to make a promise to each other to stay away from teh AIBU threads. I've just been there and witnessed one poster, albeit a fairly unreasonable one, getting a right kicking. I'm going to stick to the sanctuary of the indecisive thread from now on!

Maybe you should read notjustanumber's post again to redress the balance?

Suerock I got a bit indignant about teh whole "you're not a mum what are you doing here?" attitude that some posters seemed to display. Which seemed to be partnered with the "You're not a mum, what would you know about kids?" attitude. And you're right there is a divide. I think some of it is real, i.e. you probably don't get the real joys and frustrations of parenthood (and there are joys!) until you do it yourself, but the assumption that the childless must neccessarily have no knowledge of or interest in children is wrong.

I think part of the problem i had when my best mate told me she was pregnant was that I felt she was about to go to a place where I couldn't be. Our lives have been running in parrallel since we met at university 14 years ago, and now she's going to go off on this amazing adventure that I can't share.

Humm, I might be starting to ramble a bit (must be the red wine that childless women can indulge in!), I think I might have lost the point I was trying to make.

Anyway, I think the general gist is, having kids will change our lives beyond measure, but I think that's not a good enough reason not to do it. Yes, long baths and lie ins might not happen post baby (although I'm sure appropriate arrangements can be made to ensure you get those blessings occassionally)
but surely these are pretty small things to lose in comparison with the sheer joy that having your own little YorkshireTeaDrinker / Suerock / confuseddoiordonti / HoneyPetal (delete as appropriate).

Sorry, I'm getting gushy. I was stood in the queue at M&S this afternoon behind a little girl who was asleep in the trolley clutching a comfort blanket. It made me very green. . I also realised that Mum's can cope - cos M&S cut up all the vegetables for you so you don't have to!

Maybe these would become Famous Last Words if I was to become a parent, Suerock, but I think it is possible to control your children. Yes, they do throw wobblers etc, probably when it's most embarassing for yourself, but on a general basis they need boundaries and they will (at least to an extent) adhere to them. If they don't, you make bloody sure they know what they are a missing as they have to stay at home instead of go out to, lets say, a birthday party or similar.

Some friends of my DH, (he is lovely but the wife, er, isn't) are very firm with their daughter (but also very loving) - when their daughter had a fight with someone at nursery they took her home and made HER put all her birthday presents in a black bin bag (it was her birthday in a few days and she had been getting parcels.) I can safely say she's never started any more fights! (by the way, she did get the presents in the end but only half - the other half got given after she'd both apologised and also been EXTREMLEY good for two weeks.)

Hello, am back now and can type in a more leisurely fashion.

So, the AIBU's... I think, in retrospect, I ought to have worded it better as it may have come across (to an oversensitive parent at least) that I was having a go about children being in restaurants rather than the children's racket and the lack of parental anything. However, I was shocked at the number of replies which said it was my own fault for going to a pizza place at that time on a weekend. Surely anyone is entitled to eat wherever they like on a weekend! I certainly wouldn't have been allowed to shout from one end of the room to another when I was little and out, but it seems this is not as common an opinion as you would think.

Anyway, can't be arsed with that anymore, the ins and out of it anyway. However, it did put me off the whole thing again - all the talk of distracting children with raisins etc, or not being able to eat out any more and so on. It made me think about whether I really want to have to consider and look after another person constantly and not take time out to simply be myself.

I think I am writing this badly, in fact I know I am, and it would be a lot easier to talk about it face to face. I think I mean I am not liking the idea of how much responsibility etc it is and how you cannot put yourself first EVER. Add to that temper tantrums, going everwhere with a bag of wet wipes and other child equipment, all and sundry wanting to give their opinion and the countless other things you must encounter all the time when you're someone's mum and it doesn't sound very appealing. At the moment I am really tired after a busy week, just cooking some dinner and having a lovely well earned glass of wine. Later I'll possibly have a deep bath (with Molton Brown bubbles) go to bed and then wake up in the morning at a civilised hour. I am unlikely to be doing many, or any, of those things if a dc was in the equation.

Fuck. The words 'back' 'to' 'square' and 'one' have popped into my head...

Sorry I've been a bit quiet - no time to post. But glad to hear about your conversation with your DH, HP! Hopefully this is the shape of things to come.

I had mixed feelings about the thread following Confused's AIBU post. I'm sad there seems to be so much of a divide between 'us' (i.e. parents) and 'them' (i.e. childless people like us lot, even if we're thinking about becoming parents). And I can already see this gulf appearing between me and my friends/family with children - "oh, we were only doing kid stuff so didn't think you would want to come" and "we'd have asked you to be a godparent/viceparent but didn't because you don't have children of your own" spring to mind.

I was also possibly naive enough to think that I might have some control over my childrens' behavior but according to many of the posters on the thread it seems not!

Oh, and I was most miffed to find Confused accused of being (a) a troll (someone who posts infammatory comments just to wind people up) and (b) having no right to be on Mumsnet! Outrageous!

I'm mostly amber, but am nonetheless going to try my out-of-date ovulation predictor kit (and if there's anything vaguely positive, will try and give DH some encouragement to not be too tired!).

I found the AIBUs pretty fierce. And your post really opened a can of worms, confused. But I followed the thread and figured, that parents are actually no different to the rest of us. There are people in the world who are self-centred and inconsiderate of others and there are those who are not. The former will probably develop into the sort of parents who let their kids run riot in public and expect everyone else to enjoy endure it, the latter will be keeping their offspring amused with colouring in or confined to home, because they don't want to disturb other people.

I hope that's the case - I don't want to turn into the sort of irritating woman who believes that perect strangers should adore my kids just cos I do!

Hello! I've missed you!

Hmm, I am quite shocked at some of the AIBU responses, and didn't expect some of the replies - although there seemed to be very much two definate camps.

Will be back later on tonight to 'talk' properly as about to leave work in a sec.
Till then...

ps Am amber. The AIBU's have put me off a bit

I think a troll is someone who registers, posts once and then bogs off. Or at least that what I think its supposed to be.

Maybe its MumsNet code for childless women who dare to use a parenting forum to discuss their lack of obvious maternal impulses and failure to adore every child they encounter in public places!

There are some seriously scary women on the AIBU threads...

The AIBU threads scare me. You were very brave to venture on them, Confused. I had a read through in support, man, they get angry. And also, what the hell is a troll??

Anyway. So, Im feeling green. Green green green. Dont worry, its 100% hormone related, as I am on my week break from my little friend (pill).

Green.

Afternoon ladies,

The pub thread kicked off a bit Confused - I hadn't realised there was such depth of feeling around the right to let your children run riot in public spaces!

I'm a lime-ish shade of green at the moment. Which is probably a good place to be. Sort of keen but not too keen. How's everyone else? Shades of green all round?

Wow, notjustanumber, thanks - what an amazing post. Am going to cut and paste it into a file for if I ever get pregnant and am panicking!

And great news, HP! That's a huge step forward.

Not sure what I think about the pub thing, Confused, but I know how I would have felt and that is just like you...

(Just found one of my nephew's bibs in the clean washing. That and NJAN's post and I'm back to green!)

No, they would not!

I did say at the time, in the pub, that perhaps I'd be similar if it was me with the children. However, I am fully in agreement of the 7pm thing!

Am amazed at the reaction on the AIBU thread!

In response to your Am I Being Unreasonable Thread Confused on the whole I share your "IT'S A PUB NOT A CRECHE!" sentiment. However, there are different types of pub, and if you're in a family friendly pub at a family friendly time, then the chance of it being full of kids (who are loud and child-like) is always there and you've got to respect a parent's right to take their child into a public space. However CBeebies stops entertaining children at 7.00pm and I think that pubs should too.

I also think its very likely that we will completely change our opinions should we have offspring of our own. .

...But then of course, our offspring wouldn't be irritating, loud or annoying, would they?!