Bus 9 - Donkey Cart departing soon, all aboard with ivf, pcos, endo, sub/unexplained fertility jump on

Hi everyone not sure if this is a place for me, is everyone going through ivf? My husband and I cannot conceive naturally as I don’t ovulate naturally and letrozole has failed so on one final higher dose now before moving on to injectables to see if they make my ovaries work but my husbands sperm morphology isn’t good so even if the ovulation induction works they don’t have great odds for us and will only let us do 3 cycles with ovulation before going to ivf and ICSI. The consultant has been honest at least to say ivf is probably going to be the outcome but they need to try these steps first with the nhs. From brief reading it sounds like everyone else is much further along the journey?

Good morning all

The embryologist called and said that they think the reason my cycle failed again is the high DNA fragmentation in the sperm, as the eggs “looked good”. And typically failure between day 3-5 is due to the sperm. We had no development at all during this time.

We just can’t get rid of this bloody fragmentation. We already paid £2k over normal IVF price to use IMSI and select best sperm. He had a variocele removed and doesn’t seem to have made a difference. Means we can’t do donor eggs with this shit sperm. And I don’t have enough eggs for donor sperm! What a mess. Instead of wasting money on IVF cycles I think we’ve gotta put all future funds into Dr Ramsay and the sperm problem! Crazy to think that I’d just turned 35 when we started and my eggs were probably ok quality back then, but didn’t know about the frag until last year because it’s not tested in normal sperm analysis. Now 38.
It also doubles the miscarriage rate, ugh!!!!

@Sunbird24 That bloody sucks that your buyer is heavily pregnant. Pregnancy and babies and families are everywhere aren’t they? We can’t unsee them. Constantly surrounded.
And yes, totally agree, we’d spend anything to get our baby, but it’s very hard when all this money is going into a black hole with no guarantee that we’ll have anything to show for it. I’m very sorry to hear you’ve spent the same amount as us so far. It’s galling.

@MIW01 Thanks so much for your kind message. We’re all struggling here and doing our best aren’t we! I hope you find a better couples counsellor. You could research whether you’ll be accepted for adoption, I think they are quite open judging by the webinar I watched last week.

Thanks @kerrym87 , I know it’s both grief but I spent 4 years coming to terms with losing my sister and now I prefer not to talk about it. Don’t know if that’s healthy or not but it took me such a long time to manage it. It hurts very much to bring it to the surface again. And I just don’t know what a counsellor can say to make me feel better about things!! I am doing CBT now which while I haven’t had a breakthrough moment, at least it’s more about coping strategies which I prefer as I like a more practical approach.
How far are you into your research/thoughts on donor eggs? I’m so sorry that you had nothing to transfer last cycle, it feels absolutely hopeless when that happens.

Regarding adoption, I think we are all in agreement that we’d need a lot of mental strength to take on such a challenge. It’s not an easy path.

@MIW01 I feel same at moment, so frustrated with our journey and a colleague just and 1st round of clomid and fell pregnant...although has early bleeding and off so who knows. Just can't come to any peace as in limbo, next 5 months just killing time and trying to keep occupied also covid has caused a major flare up of ME and I'm back at work but on my knees on days off (thought I'd be ok)

Adoption wise- same as you but don't think after my abusive previous marriage, underlying issues they won't allow us but also don't think I've got the strength and ability to give a child the extra support for their experiences and consequent behavioural and mental health issues they're likely to have. 😔

@Misty84 my last cycle I had nothing to transfer either. I was looking into donor eggs as an option for the future.
In terms of counselling, weird as I seems losing embryos and your sister are both losing something dear to you that mean alot - both grief. Initially it does make you feel worse as it comes out however, having suffered with mental health issues a long time I found not dealing with stuff meant I carried it around and it reared up later in a totally unrelated manner to bite me in the arse. However , it's when and if you're in the right place to deal with it and a good rapport with therapist makes all the difference. Really feel for you in this. It's just taking each day at a time or it gets a bit overwhelming x

Oh @Misty84 I really do empathise with you. It's just awful that life can be so, so cruel. And it is very hard to have hope in this situation.

And @Sunbird24 I am so sorry to hear of all the stress you are going through as well. I hope that the move gets a move on!

Both of you It's such a horrendous place to be having spent so much financial and emotional investment in something that hasn't come to fruition that so, so many people just take for granted! And you are absolutely right to feel sad, angry etc. I know I do! I feel life is so unfair to be given that glimmer of hope and then have it so cruelly snatched away again. But I know life is just it is what it is and fairness doesn't come into it.

I want to find some couples counselling for us, we've used our 3 on the NHS and tbh didn't really click with our counsellor, but I think it'd be beneficial for us to have more counselling for 1 thing and secondly, we are open minded to exploring adoption, even before we had all this fertility nonsense we said we'd probably have 1 of our own and then adopt a 2nd as there's so many kids needing homes and it's a passion of mine. However, having done a bit of research I'm not convinced I'd be allowed to due to physical and mental health conditions which mean I have mild disability. And I also have a family background of domestic violence. But we'll cross that bridge. Of course we are optimistic maybe it will happen naturally!

I still don’t have a completion date and my buyers are heavily pregnant (which is obviously emotionally hard to handle, not that I’d ever let on to them) so no idea when we’re all actually going to be moving. My new house should be all built some time next month.

I totally get that about the counsellors, tbf I’ve not taken my clinic up on it as I don’t imagine it’ll make much difference. Did look at double donor embryos, but it’s over £6k for 6 (plus over £2k for each transfer) and probably no point while nobody can tell me why my body always gives up on them by 10 weeks. Like you I think I’ve spent about £18k so far, and we all know we’d pay that to have our baby safely in our arms but it’s so hard to justify when you’ve nothing to show for it except a broken heart.

Thanks so much @thislittlebird for understanding this, not minimalising it or forcing me to be positive! Really appreciate it.

I think we will keep trying because like you said, how can we not, and maybe once over 40 we’ll be in the mindset to consider another avenue.

Did you have any further thoughts on the puppy?

@Sunbird24 Yes it does offer counselling, I tried it after my first round but it didn’t work for me- she was asking me if I’ve ever experienced any other grief so we ended up talking about my little sister who died 7 years ago…I came away from that an ABSOLUTE MESS. I don’t see the two things as related (apart from they’re both shit!) and it just made me feel so much worse!

I’ve tried a lot of counsellors in the past (for my sister) and never found anything that helps, it’s frustrating. I know it’s helpful for a lot of people though.

I don’t know how we can all feel better about this really. It’s just rolling with the punches!

How is your house move going?

I’m also moving house, we do like to put ourselves through it don’t we?

@Misty84 I’m sorry misty, I think you’re totally allowed to be in shock and send a miserable message. It’s a truly awful experience, I’m sorry you’ve spent that much with nothing to show for it, it’s really incredibly unfair. Take the time you need to be angry or upset or whatever, it’s a lot to come to terms with.

When you’re feeling up to it maybe pursue the adoption route a bit further in case you feel more up for it once you’ve had time to think about it more, keep trying naturally because I don’t know how we all stop doing that.

The move sounds like a good thing tbh. It’s a distraction, it’s something new to look forward to and plan for. I know it’s stressful but I hadn’t thought about it like that before, a walk in the park compared the ivf sounds alright. Even if we will be relocating across the country to add more stress.

@Misty84 im so sorry to read this, sending you lots of love. Does the clinic offer any counselling?

Was a bit in shock yesterday.

Neither embryo made it to transfer, so this is our second private round which has resulted in the same outcome.

We can’t throw more thousands (we don’t have it!) at something that has such low odds of working for us, it causes too much anguish and is quite frankly madness. £18,000 so far and nothing to show for it. When do you say enough is enough? I simply don’t have enough eggs for ivf, just like the NHS said at the beginning. And the few I produce aren’t good enough quality, with male factor added into the mix too.

It still seems a complete miracle that we conceived naturally nearly a year ago. But it took forever to happen, it didn’t last, and I’m another year older now. So not expecting another miracle, although of course we’ll keep trying because it’s hard to let go of our only dream 😔

Feeling so down and defeated. All the fight and optimism has left us. Hardly spoke to each other yesterday- there’s just nothing left to say!
I think we are beginning the very slow process of acceptance that this may just never happen for us.

@thislittlebird we are moving to Wallington in South London, it’s close to where we are now. Buying and selling is notoriously stressful but bloody hell it’s nothing compared to ivf! At least we know it WILL happen eventually. Not like this TTC shit.

Sorry for this miserable message on a Sunday morning.

@Misty84 are you having polyp symptoms too? The "much longer" thing is so annoying, no urgency whatsoever :/

Well, I will be taking tips from you and ordering for two one.

I think Trying was ok tbh. I was disappointed it wasn't more ttc focussed, it's mostly adoption, but they handled it well I think.

Yeah, my family background is not ideal I think, if you're adding it to the mix of a troubled kid too. I feel like as time goes on I'm more accepting of the idea this won't be the fix for us. We'll do two more rounds of ivf, and we'll aim to get the varicocele removed possibly, and then we'll be done probably. I can't see us having the time or money for more.

Definitely moving to Cornwall. We had our house valued a couple of weeks ago and we're going to monitor it and see what's happening in a few months. We need to get as much as we can for this because Cornwall isn't cheap and it's in demand. What's happening with your house move? You're staying in London?

@MIW01 It’s tough isn’t it. So much to think about. Totally agree I would not want to miss the baby stage either.

@CycleGirl20 That’s really wonderful and huge congratulations to you. Definitely gives us ivf-ers hope. You never know what’s going to happen. Luck can change at any point!!!!

@thislittlebird The GP said to send him the scan/evidence and he’d do a referral from that, if my symptoms are urgent (bleeding and pain) then it’s a 3 month wait, otherwise much longer. At least it’s potentially free!

My partner wasn’t officially allowed to order from the Lister menu hence they advised me to order from every section so that he could have some😉 He’d come prepared with a bagel anyway so luckily didn’t eat too much of mine! You’re in a nice comfy room with a tv and en suite.

We went round in circles for years over a dog too. It’s a big commitment and I think you’ll know when to make the leap!

I haven’t seen the show Trying although I’ve heard of it. I was worried it might be a difficult watch. What did you think?

Im really sorry about your troubled upbringing, I remember you mentioning it previously. Perfectly understandable to not want to go down certain routes.🌸

Are you still thinking about moving to Cornwall? Our house move is currently a little bit of light amongst all this infertility darkness! Just hope it happens as I can’t take another shitty outcome!!

Sorry, that should say left *ME with my grandparents. They didn't all leave together :/

Adding to what @MIW01 said about adoption, I'd feel the same and this is why we have mentally opted out of it. I didn't have a dad I knew, my mum left with my grandparents when I was young, I have a troubled family. I don't think I could face going thorough the process and then potentially getting rejected because of that, on top of not having our own child, not getting to name them, carry them, look after them as a baby and so on. It's a lot to process. I think childlessness and a couple of dogs will be our endgame if this doesn't work. We haven't considered donors, don't feel like I'm in that headspace yet.

Congrats to @CycleGirl20

@Misty84 what did the GP say?

I feel like I've been researching for years tbh, I just go round and round in circles and never actually get a dog. I'd risk the allergy thing like @MIW01 mentioned but I don't want to take antihistamines every day butI know allergies can change, I didn't used to be as allergic when I lived with the ones that shed, but I'm not prepared to do that at this stage. I've been through hell with my skin the last few years and have finally got on top of it, a dog that aggravates it just isn't worth it for me.

Speaking of which, the GP surgery has taken my meds away again so I'll probably have to get a dermatologist to write me a letter every year for them to give me the stuff I want/need :/

The average age being 3.5 years makes a lot more sense. I think it's good that you're being honest with yourself that it sounds scary, it's easy to get into all this without thinking adoption through. The "just adopt" people make me die, like it's a fucking sweet shop. Have you seen the show Trying?

That's a whole feast! Was your DH there too? Could he eat any of it?

@Misty84 as @thislittlebird says, I had a 1bb transferred. I was pretty convinced there was no way it'd work, but she's now a few weeks old and asleep on my knee. The clinic actually transferred a 1bb over a 4bc too.

@thislittlebird pure Bichon is absolutely fine. It's poodles I'm not a huge fan of but that is my personal opinion. Maybe try going to see a few breeds you like and see how you react to them (if it's safe). I do know someone who was very allergic to dogs but loved them so much she just took antihistamines all the time so she could have them and eventually she built a tolerance. I'm not suggesting it's a good idea but an interesting story!

@Misty84 I'm so sorry that the adoption route is a hard sell. We were just discussing this before getting our BFP at the beginning of this month and we would only want a baby as we would feel we're already missing a huge part of the journey not going through a pregnancy together if we went for that option we would at least want to have the full on parenting experience. I would definitely be open to siblings (twins I suppose would be the only option with babies) and disabilities, ethnic minorities (though they'd know they're adopted as fiancée and I are as Caucasian as it comes 😅) but I know it's a long, long process.

@thislittlebird I keep forgetting to answer your question about the Lister food. I had soup of the day, salmon and cream cheese sourdough sandwich with side salad and crisps, roast chicken caprese salad, cheese and crackers with celery and grapes, white choc chip cookies, orange juice, tea and coffee. Basically ordered as much as I could considering it’s all included 🤣🤣.

Calling the GP this morn to see if we can get the op done on the NHS, obviously it’ll be too late for this cycle though unless we’re able to freeze.

@MIW01 It’s a good attitude and yes you CAN get pregnant! Big positive. That’s not to take away from your loss and grief though. ❤️

@thislittlebird Thats annoying about the neighbours dog barking. Its definitely a big decision especially with your allergies to consider too. Researching it as much as possible is a good way to go.

Speaking of research, apologies I gave some misinformation yesterday when I said average adoption age was 11. I’d got a bit confused with all my emails from various companies, and that was actually a private foster placement company. So ignore me!!

Had the webinar with Adoption UK yesterday and the average age is 3.5years. But there’s more adopters than adoptees!!! And everyone wants the same thing…a little baby😔 The kids that have a hard time being placed are ethnic minorities, special educational needs and sibling groups.
It didn’t make me optimistic about the idea, it scared me to be honest😔 The reality is these are school age children who have had a very traumatic start in life, they come with social and emotional problems, and in this country they’re not allowed any face to face contact with their birth parents until 18yrs old. Therefore so tough for them, such a complex sense of identity and belonging. So many issues. Not sure we are strong enough for that. Sigh.
I HATE it when people say “Why don’t you just adopt?” like it’s the easiest thing in the world, a simple solution. No fucking clue.

Every hope resting with our 2 embryos in the lab that have hopefully survived the last 24hrs 🙏

@MIW01 i would feel the same, it’s a massive step knowing it can work for you! Fingers crossed for next time.

yeah that’s my fear tbh, that a very smart dog will be too much for us newbs. I can’t have any dog unfortunately or I’d select on easygoingness over coat. Couldn’t have a lab or gr or similar because the hair is too much and they’re a bit big for me. I had three chihuahuas when I was young and became allergic to the coats at some stage. Also had yorkie x dachshunds and I loved them but again, I’m allergic now. I’ve have had all sorts of dogs as a kid, including a poodle but she was very old.

What’s your thoughts on bichons? I’m not really into white dogs but I’ll take a white dog who is easier than a coloured one that’s more stressful.

Thank you @Misty84 and @thislittlebird obviously it's not the outcome we wanted but we know we can get pregnant so we are looking forward to when it happens again for us and will do all we can to ensure it sticks but I doubt we'll be as excited as last time after this.

Dogs wise, I wouldn't generally recommend poodle crosses as poodles are high energy dogs that require a lot of physical and mental stimulation. In general, the more intelligent a dog is, the more challenging it is. I like cavapoos because the King Charles temperament mellows them out a lot and the ones I know don't shed. I've only met one BichonXPoodle and not a fan tbh. But then I'd never choose anything Poodle myself so I'm biased! I have a golden retriever and a chihuahua.

@Misty84 how do they even do it? It annoys me how expensive it all is and then the overpayment is just a cheek tbh.

We're going to pay for two at the Lister too, when we get there. What sort of food is it? I like the sound of it lol.

No, we live in a terraces with gardens that back on. There's a dog behind us somewhere that was crying, barking, howling for hours recently and it was so annoying and loud. I think it was when the owner went out.

I am certainly considering it with your experience being positive. I worry it won't be the same with a straight up poodle, but I hope so. As I said up there, my fear is a poodle will be too clever for us first timers lolol.

Average age is 11? Wow, that's crazy but glad you're looking into it. I think with my own background being a little unusual/difficult it might not be a good choice for me, and I don't think dh has the drive to do it, not sure I do either, feeling a bit old already tbh. We may resign ourselves to being childless eventually.

@MIW01 I’m sorry to hear about the loss, but glad you can take the positives from it. Not knowing if you can get pregnant is a big mental hurdle for me, so I’m glad you can take that away from it all.

Interesting what you said about cavapoos because I’ve wondered if they’re more chilled because they’re half KCC. I would like one but I absolutely need it to be as low shedding as possible with a curly coat and I worry the mixes won’t be as near to a poodle coat as I’d like. I’m guessing you have a lot of experience so can I ask your thoughts on bichons vs poodles? I wouldn’t mind a poodle mix but the coat unpredictability is worries me and I think these are realistically the only dogs I’ll be able to have, but I’m worried a poodle might be too much for me as a new dog owner. I’ve had dogs growing up, but never my own. My husband has never had one.

Oh god @MIW01 I am SO SORRY. It is so cruel to have blissful happiness and then have it snatched away. You’re doing well to take positives. Really am thinking of you. I was a bundle of nerves throughout my 10 week pregnancy, never relaxed and won’t again if it happens. How long have you been on this TTC journey in total now? It’s 3 years 1 month for us. So so sorry again🌺xx