Bus 9 - Donkey Cart departing soon, all aboard with ivf, pcos, endo, sub/unexplained fertility jump on

Haha me too @thislittlebird !!!

No we saw another guy before, not the famous Ramsay. You’ve seen him right? Worth it? 🤨 More expense obvs…

@OrangeBengal I messaged her on instagram to say how much I'd related to her podcast, she was very sweet in response too. What episode was that? I don't spot, but I am so very tired of seeing blood once per month for 4 days or so. There's never an end, I haven't even got to my FET test day once yet, I always know it's failed because I bleed or get a migraine.

Glad you enjoyed acupuncture. It's more like therapy for me really, and has been more like that than my actual therapy was. My woman did a transfer day "prescription" of points, not that it worked for me but I might go again if we have the money.

@R55 I'm no help either sorry, but feel free to join the thread.

@Alexis7890 three times! Wow what a very annoying thing to do!

@kerrym87 the shitty thoughts diary is probably not a bad idea!

@Misty84 I think bland foods would finish me off 😂. Have you seen Ramsay before? I can't recall.

@Alexis7890 sorry to hear you are struggling with letrozole. I think I’ve spoken to you about it before. I ended up having a 50 day cycle on 2.5mg and now I’m on 5mg and day 12 and I don’t think it’s worked again, I have no ovulation signs and I can just tell it’s been a failure. I don’t think I’m going to waste any more time or energy on it. I haven’t had a normal cycle since June because of letrozole and I ovulate on my own anyway, it’s made everything worse. I am worried about why I’m not responding to it. It makes me feel like my eggs must be totally useless. I’m going to go for IVF once I get this cycle out of the way. But I wanted to TTC for 18 months first and that hasn’t really happened because of the letrozole disaster wasting time. It’s been about 16 months but I’m 36 at Xmas, my boys are getting older and quite frankly TTC is ruining my life at the moment. I’m so sick of it. I need to try what I can, draw a line under it and move on and I can’t do that until we’ve tried IVF

That’d be great, thanks @Misty84. The bland food and limited dairy is because she thinks I may still some healing to do from my surgery and in Chinese medicine the uterus is associated with the spleen and treating the spleen means this kind of diet and apparently cold foods are never recommended anyway. As I eat a lot of cold foods, I’ve decided where I can’t cut them out I’ll drink a warm / hot drink alongside them (this was mentioned in relation to desserts on a talk with a separate acupuncturist, so I figure it’s ok in general).

@Alexis7890 I can totally see why your doctor banging on about a second baby is not helpful or relevant at all currently!! How infuriating.

@kerrym87 So sorry to hear about your recent cycle. It definitely takes time to process. I just had my second cycle with nothing to transfer again and it really sucks.
Such a build up and it all comes crashing down so quickly.

@OrangeBengal I’m glad your acupuncture went well. Why were you advised to eat bland foods?
Also trying to work on defrag here. Partner has swapped his boxers (I told him to do this about 2 years ago!!!) but he’ll never pay for acupuncture and he has always refused to speak to a counsellor. He is going to see Dr Ramsay next month though, so if there’s any useful words of wisdom I’ll pass them on to you.

Hi @R55, as far as I know AGRC is the most expensive of the private clinics because they monitor you extensively. No idea about wait times though.

Thanks @kerrym87, that really helps and I’m so sorry your most recent transfer was cancelled, it happened to me for a different reason and it sucked big time as you’re ready to go and it’s hard to know where to direct the energy and emotions you’ve built up.

I started acupuncture yesterday and pretty much the first thing she said to me was ‘we’re going to work on your emotions’, so clearly some kind of counselling is needed, which I actually welcome now, I did consider the clinic counselling but for some reason never got close to taking it up.

I had a follow-up with my clinic today and they suggested options for my remaining embryos (ERA then endometrial scratch pre-transfer), but also said I might have a better chance with a fresh transfer. I’m mostly trying to ignore the possibility of another EC for now, but in prep, I’ve also suggested that my husband gets another frag test done and if it’s still bad, he cuts out the booze and coffee completely. I’ve also said he should do acupuncture as apparently this has been proven to help, I’m not sure if this relates to frag though, but I figure it’s worth a try and that he probably needs some counselling too. Will also throw in the cooling pads and bamboo underwear for extra luck!

@Alexis7890 I found people ask less than i think they will...was dreading family gathering where DIL just had successful 1st ivf and I thought they'd be all over the top wow great etc. It was barely mentioned apart from foods offered that were pregnancy safe. However, I just give short answers and look away and ot usually diverts. I work on a baby unit so I get asked that by parents alot as they're surprised I don't have kids but can't be too familiar so just say not yet and move convo on.
I also have inofolic alpha and they put me on metformin too just I'm case ( I'm a healthy weight and blood sugar ok but some studies say it may help) but I have pcos. My cycles are generally 30-39 days but issue is with maturation and quality of eggs for me so letrozole didn't help. It seems to help those who have irregular ovulation x

@OrangeBengal it's worth trying a cooling pad for him and moving to cooler undies such as bamboo ones- hubby now wears one step and stops the sticky warm balls 🤣 with impryl, fenugreek and bud reducing alcohol and losing weight it improved his sperm alot.
I've been quiet as had 2nd failed ivf cycle June (caught covid and it ruined whole cycle so didn't even get to transfer) and its been so hard. All I can suggest is there's not many answers, allow yourself to feel angry, annoyed ,grieve etc let it out, access counselling if it helps, really helps me. I write shitty thoughts in a book just for that take each day at a time and try to plan nice little things for the week ahead. However, it being on my mind all the time and the crap between cycles that is this journey I'm still learning to deal with, really sympathise!

@thislittlebird exactly!! He mentioned it 3 times…..all we can think is he was trying to be positive that 1 is achievable?! But talk about insensitive when 1 is nowhere on the horizon right now and he’d just said how this cycle was dysfunctional and scrap it as there’s no chance odds of these meds working not being great for me etc etc I was so cross with him for mentioning it once let alone 3 times!!

Hey @thislittlebird I’m glad you liked it and find it helpful, I almost cried on one of their earlier episodes where Ramona was saying no-one was listening to her about her spotting and that she just wanted to stop seeing blood in her knickers, I felt it. I’m thinking about where you are now and will continue listening.

Acupuncture was good, she was really nice. She gave me some general advice about making sure to eat three times a day, limited dairy and only warm, bland foods (the last one will be difficult). She also said we’ll focus on emotions alongside the acupuncture, which is probably needed.

She thinks me having had fibroids is probably at the heart of my issue and if I would have seen her earlier she said she would have advised trying naturally, which she thinks would have worked within 2 years.

She knows how old I am though and appreciates that that time has past. I’ll see her weekly (she put pins in my right leg, below the knee, then one each in my wrist, forehead, stomach and ear!). But she said the most important appointment will be on transfer day.

Welcome @R55, I’ve joined recently and this group has already been a great source of support. Unfortunately I can’t help with your query though.

Hello All

Im 40 and have been TTC for about 9 months now. I’m considering IVF with ARGC and wondered if anyone could shed any light on how they are and any recent pricing info? Additionally how long it took to get an appointment/ treatment? I heard there’s a waitlist?
Thsnks x

@OrangeBengal i started listening to FTOL today. I listened to an ep at her 4th transfer. It was good to hear someone who gets this, who understands how it feels to have time working against you, to ask why it’s never your turn. I’ll be listening to more, I’m sure!

How did the acupuncture go?

@Alexis7890 a second baby? I don’t think that’s helpful at all, what an odd thing to say.

Thank you for all of the tips 😊 I’m generally an oversharer and quite open with people and lots of people in my life know what’s going on, something in me just doesn’t want those people to know.

Had the latest appt with my consultant who because of the random bleeding and after doing an ultrasound and seeing that I have responded worse to 5mg of letrozole than I did to 2.5mg, he has ruled this is a dysfunctional cycle and to try 5mg again in a new cycle before giving up on it. He kept saying ideally letrozole will work for you and then when you want a second baby it’s much easier and cheaper……how about we focus on one baby which is currently nowhere on the horizon?! I was getting incredibly annoyed with him and those comments!!

does anyone take inositol? I was taking it and stopped as the one I used was stopped and that’s the only thing that’s changed between 2.5 cycle and 5 cycle so I wondered if that could be a reason?! I’ve spent far too much time thinking about what did I do last cycle (even though the meds didn’t even work) that I’m not doing now that could have caused this cycle to be even worse!! No follicles over 10mm (10mm was the biggest last cycle as well) and an even thinner lining 😔

sorry I think you’ve all just got my frustration and overthinking download!!

Ah, yes @thislittlebird I remember her and I did relate to her more. Does she have her own podcast now? It was also really nice that it was both her and her partner on BFN, same thing with Trying Out Loud (podcast).

I’m a bit of a hermit too now, which I think my husband worries about. But with WFH and getting used to it during the pandemic, it’s just so easy to be one, which is probably not good!

First acupuncture session tomorrow - eek! I hope I like as I’ve booked in a course of treatment!

@Misty84 PRE-COVID™, how depressing lmao.

I think I'm going to see if that guy who does Ask the Expert on the feryility podcast. He's a Lister guy, might see what he's like next. If I don't like him I can change again before we start.

@OrangeBengal I'm basically a hermit now lol. I don't go to much, don't want to get into all this with my friends who all had kids in lockdown. If we get enough eggs we'll ask to try IVF on a few maybe!

I've read a bit Emma Barnett's issues, it's nice to hear someone in the public eye talking about it. But yeah, all of the main podcast hosts on BFN or on Fertility Podcast or Emma B succeeded first or second time afaik. I just don't think that's quite the same as when you've had multiple failures, it becomes like another dense layer of infertility altogether. BFN introduced that Welsh girl, she and her husband had a really tough time, I found listening to her more relatable. Not sure if you've heard her yet?

What's For Trying Out Loud, another podcast?

It’s the conversation we all want to avoid. Mostly I’ve skipped the events where this question seems likely, but more recently have said ‘we’re working on it’ @Alexis7890.

I think you’re approach re IVF / ICSI seems right @thislittlebird. IVF is less likely to work if motility is an issue, though I think they can do wonders in the cleaning and keeping the option open will probably help your DH, which mentally is worth a lot.

6 episodes into season 3 of BFN btw, I also subscribe to Woman’s Hour presenter Emma Barnett’s Substack. I started listening to ‘For Trying Out Loud’ today, as even though I get a lot from the guys I currently follow, I needed to find someone who was struggling a bit more trying for their first.

I find it crazy that Covid didn’t even exist when you and I started @thislittlebird , thats how long ago it was!!!

Yeah no real justification on using IMSI. Go with your gut. And in your position I’d go with multicycle over refund package too, due to expense.

@Alexis7890 Pretty much everyone I know is aware of my fertility struggles now so wouldn’t ask anything insensitive, but if there’s someone I really wouldn’t want to know, I just smile and say “Oh yes one day, but for now we’re focusing on (insert house/ holiday/ job excuse)!” and then distract them by talking about that!

@Misty84 yeah we started Oct 2019. Feels like another life. I always worried it would take us a while and I remember saying we need to start trying now. Wish I'd said that a few years earlier.

It's so hard because although we made blasts, and hopefully can again, I feel like I'm about to enter the repeated implantation failure category and that feels like yet another mountain to climb.

You know Faris suggested IMSI to us too and I never really got why. It's just a big microscope that costs more, did he give you any insight into why it can help? Other than they can see the sperm more closely. The suggestion of it annoyed me lol. I might try another doc this time, I'm having the full Lister experience here. 😅

Yeah I'm really not sure about the refund package. I'm thinking we'll likely go with the 2 cycle 10,800 package and start saving again in case it doesn't work/we want one more try. I don't feel like we can justify the 19k when we then have to pay 6k in meds on top, plus any other tests and general life expenses. And they might reject us for it too, so probably shouldn't worry about it.

@OrangeBengal yeah I don't think Evewell do. Care do their own and Access offer packages for a few clinics, including Lister. Is BFN doing new episodes? I didn't realise. I guess it's just an odds game, like eventually you will get a good one but.....it's hard to believe it will happen after repeated failure.

DH is keen to try IVF over ICSI. I think we're going to approach the private consultant and say IF his sample has some good swimmers once the bad are filtered out, can we try it? I don't know what to do for the best, but maybe they're selecting duffers . My dh has motility issues but not bad frag. They can't swim or they're already dead. I think it could be his age, I think his family age quite fast. I might be wrong, but there's no good explanation for this anyone had given us. A small varicocele that we'll get another opinion on.

@Alexis7890 not sure my advice is helpful, at this stage I tell people. I'm an oversharer anyway and just say "actually we're doing ivf". Luckily people have stopped asking for the most part.

Sorry to interrupt your ivf chats, does anyone have any advice for when people make comments/ask when you’re going to have a baby or the oh your turn next/when you have a baby etc? Going to a whole extended family event at the weekend and seeing them all again the following weekend at a wedding, immediate family know everything and extended don’t and I don’t want them to, they are the sort of family members who do and will comment and to make it worse all of my cousins that have recently had children (all children will also be at the wedding), it happened instantaneously for them which just digs the knife in even more! Just knowing we’re seeing them, makes me not even want to go and just sends anxiety levels through the roof dreading any comments, any suggestions welcome!!

And thanks for the IMSI info @Misty84

Looks like the stats will be kept secret as these are used for his company’s modelling - ttps://www.eu-startups.com/2022/02/london-based-gaia-raises-e17-68-million-to-redesign-access-to-fertility-care/

@OrangeBengal IMSI is a step further than ICSI- the sperm is viewed at very high magnification. Rated red on HFEA so not enough evidence to support it, but we knew it was our last round that we could afford so trusted our consultant and paid for it. Waste of money really, as no blastocysts. But at least we tried.

Interesting what you say about couples giving up too soon. When is enough enough though? It’s so difficult. Definitely follow up if you find out anything further.

In hindsight I wish we’d thought about a refund package, but never mind now. I’m at The Evewell and I don’t think they offer them.

Choosing a package is definitely a tricky decision. I listen to the BFN podcast and a couple of weeks ago they had a guest on who said that according to ‘the stats’ couples give up too soon and if carrying on further are likely to get their child, obviously this peaked my interest, but it was said as a kind of aside, so no real details given, I’m going to try and follow it up and I’ll come back with what I find.

Re ICSI vs IVF @thislittlebird, have a real think about this. My clinic seemed to want to do ICSI as standard, but I was trying to hold on to any natural bit of the process and therefore we agreed to do 1:1, which as we got 11 in the end, meant 6 for ICSI and 5 for IVF, after testing it was the ICSI batch that had a couple of abnormals in there. As 3 eggs in our IVF batch were actually immature, the hit rate was really high, 100% if my ‘unknown’ comes back as euploid. With this in mind I think I’d push for 100% IVF if doing this again, regardless of my husband’s frag issues, which are probably better now then they were then.

What’s IMSI @Misty84?

@thislittlebird And there’ll be meds on top of those prices of course which are around £2k per round. Mental how expensive private is.

@Alexis7890 @OrangeBengal @Sunbird24 @MIW01 sounds like we all completely understand and experience the pain of being surrounded by others success with fertility! It absolutely sucks.

@thislittlebird I know there’s only a few months between when we started TTC (I was July 2019 and I think you were Oct 2019?), it’s madness to think we could easily have 2 kids by now if our bodies worked properly!!
I just think you’re capable of making blastocysts, that’s really incredible, why the hell shouldn’t one of those be your lucky one?? You’ve got 2 more embryos this round then a couple of private rounds- I just don’t see why it wouldn’t work for you. Only one of those has to transfer!!! 🙏 I know there’s no guarantees but Jesus, you’re really throwing everything at it here, you deserve it to work at some point.

Tell me about the expense of ICSI, IMSI was even more🙄
I wasn’t eligible for refund package so that was never an option for us (low amh strikes again) but do you think you’ll do that? It’s so much more than the 2 cycle multi package isn’t it…

Our next steps are follow up consultation with Faris next week (hope he’s just real with us) and then Ramsay booked in Oct.