TTC for 10 months and the rest. Ten plussers welcome. Thread 2.

Thanks banana that's what I thought but then someone told me a HSG was a pre-requisite for ivf and I got confused.

Boris I'm doing IVF without a HSG. If we were doing IUI or ovulation induction then Dr wouldn't proceed without checking my tubes were patent, but as IVF bypasses the tubes there wasn't any specific need to do this test before the cycle. Obv helpful to know about blockages for TTC naturally - but as IVF is the solution if they are blocked, there wasn't any compelling benefit to doing it in my case xx

sammy lucie and banana great news.
trixie your expert sounds ideal

AF arrived for me, I tried to book in for the HSG and they only do them locally on a Friday afternoon so i can't get it done for another 6 weeks or so. Does anyone know how significant it would be going for ivf without having it done? My consultant told me it's highly unlikely to show anything given my medical history (no infections, surgery etc). The Czech clinic say they'll do ivf without having done a HSG first.
The Czech clinic has a backlog so no early first consultation which is sad for me, I did so want to try to go in February....

Great to see so much good news today!
Yay for lots of lovely follicles Lucie and Banana
And great that you've got your +opk Sammy
I feel a bit like I'm cheating on my clinic by going to see Dr. Gorgy as they have said they will prescribe me prednisolone and do the intralipids but my consultant is very much on the fence with the whole NK cell thing and if this is the obstacle stopping IVF from working for us then I want to get the very best advice possible. Brilliant to hear about your friend Banana!

Woohoo! Amazing news lucie x

Woo Lucie! Congrats on the follies, all sounds good.

Still no temp rise for me. Opk still positive but now I've run out so can't test again. I feel a bit like AF is coming which is weird, but fx for temp rise tomorrow. Xx

Hi ladies, hope you’re well

trixie great stuff to see Dr Gorgy - a friend saw him for immunes tx alongside her NHS cycle @ Hammersmith, she is now 10 weeks, rates him highly. Apparently not the best communicator but knows his stuff! Good luck, from other ladies I know who are also seeing him for tx, you couldn’t really be in better hands

Lucie hope your stims are going well? Ooh, read lots on Dr Sher’s site about his A/ACP, sounds really interesting. Excited for you! If you’ve managed to get blasts from low egg numbers, it sounds like you have really terrific quality.

DHEA is an interesting one, as Dr Sher is vehemently opposed to it, says it absolutely shouldn’t be given to women with DOR (vs the CHR clinic who pioneered it, who say they have great results) Who knows eh?!!!

Good luck for your tracking scan tomorrow

Boris keeping everything crossed for your HSG and IVF prep, and hope you’re feeling better? And yes, we all end up having to be such advocates for ourselves, I have read I think pretty much every medical abstract on diminished ovarian reserves going - I sometimes think ignorance is bliss as I would worry less, but then again I also think knowledge is power, and it enables us to ask better questions of our doctors. Double edged sword!

sammy woop for OPK!! Amazing news. Chuffed to bits for you! Do keep us posted how you get on with acupuncture. My therapist did an electro-acupuncture treatment designed specifically to increase blood flow and stimulate the endometrial lining - it didn’t do the trick for me, but my issue isn’t blood flow, but does seem to work wonders for loads of women.

BTW can your clinic check your uterine blood flow? My consultant just flicked something on the ultrasound to do a doppler assessment of the uterine artery when I was in earlier, and could see that the blood flow was looking good - might be worth asking, if they’re not already checking it?

Hoping you get that temp spike soon and the dates all work themselves out.

I had my first tracking scan today (day 8) and consultant was ‘over the moon’ with my response (and a little gobsmacked), as I have……drumroll….Only bloody 14 follies !!!

Absolutely stoked - not too shabby for someone who had an AFC of 5 in September, and AMH of 1.5. And FSH of 17.6 back in July!!

Dr has halved my Gonal-F, and then I’m to drop it again on Thu - next scan is on Friday, he thinks prob trigger Sat and EC Monday.

Lining is ‘fair’ (6.6mm) but he will keep an eye on it - may add in Progynova after Friday’s scan. He checked the blood flow and it was excellent - so it’s definitely an oestrogen thing. By Friday I’ll have been on the Cetrotide for a few days so we should be able to add in the oestrogen without interfering with the follies. Although we don't yet know what impact my high FSH will have had on my egg quality, Dr is hopeful we should have enough embryos (given we also have 6 mature eggs in the freezer to batch together with whatever we get this time) to go to blast. In which case we have a further 5 days of progynova after EC to get the thickness right, so fingers crossed. So, things hopefully heading in the right direction!

Oh, and Dr was also pretty astonished by my spectacularly swollen belly - his eyes nearly fell out of his head. I look 4-5 months pregnant, I am the size of a frigging house (and it is really, really obvious on a size 8 frame). So I think that means I must be pretty bloated if I’m shocking the top fertility Dr with my tummy!!!

I know, it's that feeling of dread as you watch their faces looking at the screen! Although I have started to be able to tell just from looking myself whether a scan is good or not! Lol.

Yes so far so good, if I ov tomorrow then that would make af due on 26th/27th, and next af (if body goes back to normal ) on around 22/23. Baseline is booked for 22nd, so would just need to move it by a couple of days! Phew! Xx

Banana - I'm going to book up the acupuncture!

I've finally got a positive opk!! Woo! Cd16 though so really late for me.

Fx for a temp rise tomorrow or Thursday! (Freak over here who ovs several days after first positive opk!) x

Lucie - good luck for tomorrow!!!

Boris - yes, we really could write a book! It makes me sad sometimes when I think about how much I know about all this infertility rubbish now. Why can't I just be the woman who gets pg the month after stopping the pill and doesn't even know what an opk is??! Sorry for the bfn, take it there's no more news on those symptoms? Xx

Wow you ladies. Are all on epic journals, between you you could write a book on fertility issues, tests and meds.

lucie good luck for the scan. Really hope everything is properly on track. Thanks for all your advice.
trixie sorry for AF
banana I'm fascinated by your story. It's amazing you have such a knowledgable doctor on board.
mmp your plan sounds very wise. I'm sort of hopeing to get to Czech rep in early February if at all possible so I might have some helpful info for you to along with all lucies wise words.
Waves to sammy

I felt sick yesterday morning and exhausted and my boobs were massive, so today I did a Frer with fmu which was bfn at 11dpo. my bodies just being really mean to me. AF due tomorrow. Next cycle will be HSG and hopefully prep for Czech then I hope to start ivf the cycle after. Might be a bit over ambitious given I have really short cycles.
Sorry for crap grammar, on phone and entertaining DSD.

Wow, it's busy on here

Lucie, I'm sure the pains are a positive sign, good luck with your scans this week!

Banana, welcome to the thread, lovely to have you with us though sorry to hear about your journey so far. I had absolutely no idea hat you could go from good reserves to POF like that. Thank you for your reassurance re the high dose of folic acid best of luck with this cycle.

Star - I know what you mean about coming to terms with finally having an explanation, sounds like things are positive overall though. FIngers crossed the supplements do the trick. I have pco but not pcos. I think I had 12 follicles on one side and 18 on the other when I had my scan at my clinic last year and similar at my scan at Kings. My AMH is very similar to yours (mind you that was in Sept 2014) and on the notes my clinic gave me it said that PCOS is something like 60 or higher.
If you are getting a temp rise every month then you must be ovulating. And I take it your 21 day bloods were ok. Will be interesting to see what they say to me in a few weeks. My consultant at the clinic said something about pco and insulin levels - she suggested watching my sugar levels (I was consuming quite a lot of sugar!) my glucose levels are quite high 5.6 (I can't remember the bottom of the normal range but the top is 5.5...) I am having a glucose tolerance blood test in the morning at the recommendation of my clinic- bit of a belt and braces approach.
Exciting that the waiting list for IVF is only a month- eek!

MPP, great that you have a plan in place. I think it is a very sensible plan and I was going to say the same thing as Banana re getting ready for IVF, I definitely think having time to mentally and physically prepare is a positive and in the meantime the fertilaid may well do the trick. March isn't far away and the time is going to fly for you with a wedding to plan! (hope you sorted out the guest list)

Grr Sammy, it's so annoying when our cycles decide to mess around just when plans have been made, fx for a positive opk/temp rise soon.

Itsme, it is tough as the months pass by with no BFP. Good that you have your surgery soon though. I always think that when there is something happening that is getting you a bit closer to the end goal then it makes things a bit easier as you have something to focus on.

Things are fairly quiet here, AF arrived last night and I have officially lost count of what cycle I am on. Have bitten the bullet and made an appointment for a consultation with Dr. Gorgy (an immunology specialist) later this month to discuss NK cell treatment. Can't believe I may well be starting another cycle fairly soon!

sammy acupuncture’s gotta be worth a try! I see so, so many women on the ‘thin lining’ threads on FF who talk about it as a miracle worker - hopefully it is the same for you! And hoping ov gets a move on for you

mpp congrats on your upcoming wedding - I can totally appreciate the frustration with waiting, can you look upon the coming months of IVF prep? Given the sperm manufacturing (sounds like engineering!) and egg maturation process both take 3 months, could you look upon this time as pre-IVF getting your bodies in good shape proactive time (like with the Fertilaid), as opposed to just spinning your wheels? Big hugs

Re: the case of my disappearing eggs - yep it is a weird one. At first my consultant (who was the head of reproductive medicine @ Barts in his NHS practice, and did this MD thesis & has published extensively on premature ovarian failure, so knows his stuff!) said ‘I’m stumped, and I’m not usually stumped’. It now appears new research into the fragile X gene (responsible for some cases of POF) suggests that there is a particular sub-genotype, where women who present as PCOS in their 20s, then transition into a state of diminished reserve in their early 30s (sound familiar?!). The clinic who’ve done this research call this ’burning out PCOS’, as the woman has essentially ‘burned through’ their supply of eggs in their PCO days, when they were busy madly recruiting follicles. It may or may not be that this is what’s happened to me - I’ve not got tested, as tbh it’s somewhat academic at this point: my reserves are significantly depleted, so it’s really about how we deal with it, rather than what caused it. Interestingly, this research suggests that women with this particular gene mutation tend to end up with very very low androgen levels (having got used to excess androgen levels in their ovaries in their PCOS days) - and will really benefit from pre-treatment with DHEA supplementation before starting stims. My testosterone levels were almost undetectable, and after several months of DHEA are now in normal range (although with sky high SHBG levels the actual usable testosterone levels are still pretty low - another marker of this gene apparently). My consultant was astonished by my response in my first IVF, and my follicle count has since doubled - so I have no idea of knowing if this is just my sleepy ovaries having been woken up by the stims last time, or if the DHEA has made a difference. But it seems I was a good candidate for taking it, and I’m hopeful it’s had some effect on egg quality, as well as perhaps my response to stimulation.

Bodies, eh?!

The ridiculously frustrating thing is that on paper, I did everything ‘right’. At 28 I had a fertility MOT which showed I had fantastic ovarian reserves, so no immediate cause for concern (apart from the PCOS). At that time, no one could have predicted I’d suddenly go crashing towards POF. The doctors in the US who’ve done the research on this gene, have introduced their own fertility MOT that as well as FSH/AMH/antral follicle count, includes testing for this particular gene - so even if you have fantastic ovarian reserve at that moment in time, if you are shown to have this particular gene, it’s very likely you may suffer from premature ovarian ageing in the future, and can make a more informed decision about your fertility (start TTC sooner, freeze your eggs etc.)

Where the fuck was this 5 years ago when I needed it?!!!!

I just hope it helps other women avoid going through what I went through.

lucie hoping the pains aren’t too uncomfortable and that it’s a sign of lots of juicy follies growing! When is your first tracking scan? What protocol are you on?

I’m now on an antagonist protocol (sledgehammer dose of Gonal-F, plus Cetrotide to be added in, prob on Tues after my first scan), same as last time. Although I wouldn’t call it ‘short’ protocol this time, as we had an abortive attempt at long protocol, with 7 weeks of down-regging (of sorts) before starting stims! Plan was to try long protocol to better manage my lining, as it’d give the Dr more control over everything, so I started on Buserelin in mid-Nov, with a view to starting stims on 1st Dec, and having the cycle done and dusted before Xmas. Best laid plans etc! Down reg scan showed I’d only gone and bloody ovulated whilst injecting buserelin, and couldn’t start stims until my ovaries were quiet. Unfortunately, we couldn’t just down reg me for another week, because that would have meant EC/ET Xmas week when the clinic would be closed, and Dr didn’t want to down reg me for another month. So I went on the pill to quiet the ovaries, and thankfully at my baseline on Monday he said he wasn’t going to put me back on buserelin to restart a long agonist protocol, and switched back to antagonist. First the problem was that I didn’t ovulate with PCOS. Then I ovulate but we worry that my sleepy ovaries wouldn’t respond to stimulation. Then apparently my ovaries won’t stop ovulating, and I don’t properly respond to suppression. You couldn’t make it up.

I am sorely tempted to ask him just to surgically remove my ovaries so I can whack them with great force with a five iron!!!

Sorry for epic post - therein lies the saga of IVF #2. Fucking hope there isn’t another incredible plot twist around the corner…

xx

Lucie - fx the twinges are a good sign!

MPP - glad you've got a plan. It seems sensible to wait, although annoying I understand.

Still no positive opk. It's cd14 today and looking back at previous charts I've had my first positive on cd14 the most, so there's still chance. It's just weird that it came so close to positive a few days ago, but then no temp rise. I just have a feeling it's going to be anovulatory. I don't mind too much as I don't believe we would get oh naturally now anyway, as long as af still arrives on time. I once had a 42 day cycle. That would really mess things up. I think we'd have to wait an extra month if that happens. Xx

Hello all!

Wow that was a lot to read! I'll try and comment as much as possible!

Lucie and Boris, I read your conversation with interest! DP doesn't cycle at all (though he does have a bike that's lived in the shed for as long as I've known him!). As I mentioned, his weakness for boil-yourself-alive hot baths, which he has given up. Thank you for the link, Boris. I'm back on my laptop Monday morning, so I'll take a look then, though it looks like it will be a while before we go down that route. We've had our discussion and we have a plan that I'm not totally thrilled with, but does make the most sense for us. We've decided that, with planning the wedding and my studies (which I do full time) we will struggle to fit ivf abroad in before May. So, our plan is this. We will continue to try while he uses fertilaid. In March, we will pay for another SA to see if this is having any effect. If it is, we will carry on trying and using fertilaid, if not we will swap to something cheaper. Regardless of that, we will start proceedings for ivf abroad in june as soon as we are back from our honeymoon. I've been pretty down about the wait, but it does make sense, and I suppose it isn't that long in the grand scheme of things. I'm just very conscious of time ticking on.

Welcome Banana! I've read your posts with interest. How strange that your pcos disappeared and your eggs with it! Did the doctor give you any kind of possible explanation for this? Hoping that your current ivf cycle is successful, and that you don't have to 'freeze all' again.

Star , sorry to hear of the mf diagnosis, but if you feel like I did, it's also quite helpful to know what the issue is. I've heard of proxeed but no experience with it in afraid. I'll keep you posted on the fertilaid results though. It's good news that the wait can be waived though, and that you've been given things to help you ovulate!

How are you doing, Sammy? Perhaps you could be ovulating a bit later this cycle? On what cd do you usually ovulate? Annoying that it messes with timings got holiday though. Why does nothing about this stuff ever go like it's supposed to?! Hopefully you'll get a positive opk soon!

So sorry you're feeling down, itsme. It really does suck. Hopefully there is something that can be done with your tubes, and the ivf wait won't be long. When DP and I got engaged, lots of people said to us things along the lines of 'babies soon then' and as we'd already been trying for about 5 months by then, I was quite hopeful and winked and said 'you never know'. I could slap myself for that now! The questions have tapered off, but I expect they'll resurgence in a few months, after the wedding and I sometimes catch myself planning the kind of things I'll say. for you.

AF arrived yesterday after the long wait, and ff did decide it had gotten ov wrong and readjusted accordingly. On to cycle... 19 or 20. need to check

Banana - see my lining is always triple lined, just nit thick enough. So I think blood flow probably is my issue. I'll contact the acupuncture place on Monday... It's just sooo expensive!

I'm keeping everything crossed for you for a thick cushiony lining, please keep us updated? Xx

Thanks for the warm welcome ladies!

Thanks lucie - good luck with your cycle, hope you get some great blasts for the freezer! Our banking was enforced, not chosen unfortunately - although I did check with the Dr if we had to freeze-all due to lining issues again, if we could freeze embryos from thawed eggs. Apparently you can! I would be absolutely over the moon if we got enough eggs to be able to go to blast. Great news about your NHS cycle - your 2016 is shaping up to be really productive!! Unfortunately I’m not eligible for NHS funding - we haven’t been TTC 2 years, and it’s unlikely I’ll meet the ovarian reserve requirements in any case. Really frustrating as I live in one of the better London boroughs, that funds two fresh cycles. Oh well, maybe someone else can have my share ….!

sammylou yes, I’m throwing the kitchen sink at it! In Oct I tried every trick in the book to try and work on my lining in a natural cycle: L’arginine, baby aspirin, Vitamin E, acupuncture, viagra up my foof, raspberry leaf tea, hot wheat packs on my belly and keeping my feet warm - took myself off for a Day 13 scan, and, nothing. 18mm follie but lining was 4.6mm and not triple line :( My problem isn’t blood flow, it’s just I don’t produce enough oestrogen (I don’t get any EWCM and my CB dual hormone OPKs don’t pick up rising levels of oestrogen, they jump straight from low to peak), so I’m sceptical about how much acupuncture will help me - esp as it went backwards after my whizzy electro acupuncture treatment in my last IVF cycle!! Really really hoping some progynova will do the job. Consultant says we can support my lining in a natural cycle, so I have a shot at TTC naturally - just has to be a monitored cycle so we don’t add it in too early and interfere with ov. Hoping acupuncture and more does the trick for you!!

star big hugs, that must have been a shock after the original SA results. My consultant is v big on supplements for sperm quality, so I’m really hoping that they work some magic. Sounds like you may be PCO but not PCOS, if you ovulate regularly and don’t have wacky testosterone? The official diagnostic criteria need 2/3 of irregular or absent periods, biochemical or clinical signs of hyperandrogenism (i.e. elevated blood testosterone levels or acne / hirsuitism), polcystic ovaries on ultrasound. I think Metformin can be prescribed to help with egg quality, if the PCO is insulin related, so maybe that’s why she’s given it to you?

Keeping everything crossed for you - 3 month chill out sounds like a great plan.

And yes, I’m 3 days into my stimulation injections to try and make those follies grow. Although as I had an abortive attempt at down regulation before Christmas, I was injecting different drugs for 2.5 weeks in Nov - so my sharps bins are pretty full! Egg collection will depend on my response to the stims, last time I stimmed for 12 days, so maybe early week after next? Have to see if I respond at all!! Your poor friend, POF is such a hard hand to be dealt. I would def consider egg donation if/when we call it a bust on my own eggs, but feel lucky we’re at least able to give it a try

itsme big hugs, hoping the surgery can work its magic with your tubes

Hope you’re all having lovely weekends xx

Oh itsme, it really sucks doesn't it?
Hugs to you.
At least your friends have stopped asking. While it's a little awkward to think they may have realised your struggling, at least it means you don't have to answer awkward 'so when are you having children?' type questions. Xx