Disgusted with IVF Charging.

I doubt if car-driving has been shown to be the sole cause of asthma in children, but smoking has been shown to be the major cause of lung cancer. There are a very small number of "atypical" lung cancers that crop up in non-smokers, but the vast majority are in smokers and caused by smoking.And that is not to mention the heart attacks, strokes, peripheral vascular disease, blindness, dementia....

The point is that smoking has absolutely no advantages to the smoker whatsoever. It is purely harmful. The sensation of relaxation is only because of the addiction. I could take my dd to nursery in a horse and trap, then drive it the 15 miles to work, but it wouldn't be practical! There is nothing "practical" about smoking.

Twinkie, I can't take your comments seriously. Let's not hijack POP2005's thread and leave it at that. I really think you should stop smoking though ,)

Fairymum - I said it was harsh in my original post and so can't disagree with you. It is how I feel I am afraid. I would agree that society as a whole can afford to contribute more money but I would rather this was used to actually get the NHS (and I will limit it to the NHS never mind education etc.) into a better position.

The original aims of the NHS have been so expanded over the years and we all have such high expectations of what it should deliver that something needs to give.

As to infertility leading to depression, I am not sure how to comment on this. Without a doubt this can happen - does that then mean that IVF should then be viewed as a preventative treatment? I am unsure how this alters my basic opinion. There is not enough money to go around -choices need to be made. The consequences of insufficient funds to treat other illness/injury may be fatal. Sorry being harsh again.

And finally - the original poster stated that he and his partner wanted a baby, not a child. There is a difference and childlessness can be solved without IVF.

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Twinkie, you can't really compare driving a car to smoking for God sake! At least I had the sense to realise I was stupid when I smoked.......

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BTW, smokers also inflict their disgusting habits on others and causes illnesses, asthma (you name it) from secondary smokers. Just had to say that in reply to some of the smokers here.
I am ex-smoker myself, but one of the reason I stopped was because would have felt so damn stupid turning up wanting treatment for self-inflicted illness!

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Gomez, I think you are being really harsh actually and quite selfish. A child is a gift? Yes, it is! And I think we can afford to pay the money needed for other people to have this gift too.

Also,Childlessness can cause serious depression which again can lead to other illnesses which needs to be treated.

I agree that having a child is not a right.

Smokers and drinkers do pay a lot in tax, but I don't think that automatically gives them a right to heart and liver transplants. They don't just cost the NHS money, but the whole welfare state...they are given incapacity benefit when they can't work due to their illness, DLA when they lose a leg through gangrene or a lung from cancer, housing needs, social workers, the list is endless (and I haven't begun to mention what they cost employers in time off,paid cigarette breaks, provision of smoking areas).

What I'm trying to say is that a smoker doesn't have a right to an operation because he's paid all the tax, but because he is ill and needs treatment. For better or for worse, all the NHS money is put into one pot and shared out. To be blunt, infertility per se isn't illness, although I can accept that it causes a lot of distress. There will always be arguments about whose case is more deserving of the limited amount of money we have. Maybe some MNers who live in countries where there is private insurance-funded health care can tell us how IVF is funded? Presumably your policy would have to include IVF as a possible treatment, and wouldn't it cost more than a policy that just covered emergency treatment of a life-threatening condition?

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As noted there is a lmited amount of money available in the NHS for treatment - choices have to be made on the use of that money. Currently the cause of the illness/injury is not used as an (official) factor in the decision to treat or not. To introduce this type of high-handed, moralistic debate is I believe both offensive and absurd. Or is it only smokers/drinkers who are to be penalised. What about individuals with HIV/Hep B caused through lifestyle choices? Or the passenger in the car driven by a drunk driver, never mind the driver? The skier who hurts their knee? The successful business man who has a stress-induced heart attack? There are so many examples of 'self-inflicted' illness/injury - where do we draw the line?

On another very simple level - there is £10,000 in the pot -who gets the money - the child with cancer, the 5 OAPs who need new hips, the silly teenager who has sniffed glue or the couple who need help to acheive their greatest wish of a child? Which case has the greatest priority? The currently living child or the potential child?

And my final point (which may lead to be being escorted from the premises) but there is no right to have a child (conceived through whatever means) it is a gift. If science can help well and good but society doesn't have a responsibility to fund the application of that science for those who can't naturally conceive. And I am afraid on that premise the funding of IVF treatment is far down my list of priorities for the use of the limited NHS funds available.

And yes it is harsh but life is harsh. And yes it is unfair that it means some can get medical help and some can't based on their income but again that is how life works - the more money you have the more options you have. But not being able to afford treatment is not the factor that decides if you can or can't have children - mother nature has already made that hard choice for those involved I am afraid.

Easy for us with children to say Northerner! I think everyone deserves a good chance to become parents. Not only rich people!

First I would like to point out that I suffer from PCOS. Last time I checked it was NOT a self inflicted condition. I am not being self rightous.

When someone puts a fag in their mouths they know the dangers. For christ sake its written all over the boxes these days. When a drinker drinks themselves stupid they know the risks they are taking. The NHS treat these people for free!!! Why cant people who wants to have kids have treatment for free on the NHS.

You dont seem to understand the point that myself and Pop2005 are trying to make.

I am DESPERATE to have a child and have to pay for my treatment. A drinker who is DESPERATE for a drink get free NHS treatment when they screw up their liver. Why should someone get free treatment when they knew what they were doing when they put the bottle to their lips? Free treatment to keep someone alive when they signed their own death wish yet I must pay to bring new life into the world.

As for if a child of IVF was to become ill with self inflicted illnesses thats a different kettle of fish to their conception so that arguement is moot!!

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Just remember that having a child is not a right but a blessing.

So Pop2005 - I take it that absolutely nothing in your lifestyle could cause a life-threatening illness: you use no chemicals in your home, you eat only organic veg, you never enter a smoky environment and you exercise and drink alcohol as per government guidelines?

Don't get me wrong - I hope you manage to have a baby and I agree that at least 1 cycle of IVF should be available on the NHS. But smokers and drinkers aren't the ones you should be blaming for it.

POP this may not be for you, but here is a clinic that will give you free IVF in exchange for egg donation. Just a thought

POP have you asked your health authority? They may provide it free, I know some do. Where are you?

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I don't believe the funds are that limited. If this country can afford to send troops to Iraq, build the millenium dome, host the Olympics. Surely we can afford treating fertility problems as well as lung cancer?

Good point Twinkie - missed that while I was typing.

I'm not sure whether or not IVF should be free (given the NHS has finite resources). purely cosmetic surgery shouldn't be, but then it usually isn't (usually there is some other thing, like Twinkie not being able to breathe).

However I am more than a little annoyed by all the self-rightous whinging on this thread about "self-inflicted" illnesses. For one thing, as twinkie says, smokers and drinkers pay a lot of money into the system. And how exactly do we define self-inflicted illness?? Smoker develops lung cancer = self inflicted. Non-smoker develops lung cancer? well probably self inflicted - they probably spent too much time in smoky bars or something. Or maybe they're lying about not smoking. And what about diabetes? It can be related to obesity, so do we treat only thin people with diabetes? What about suicide attempts?

Any life-threatening problem should always take priotity in the NHS. IVF should probably also be free (at least 1 cycle for people with no other kids should be free) after other fertility treatements have failed. But please don't be so self-rightous about it.