Disgusted with IVF Charging.

I know much loved and wonderful adopted children but still, the desire to have you own biological child with the man you love is a real and primal urge IMO. The love I feel for my son is tied in to his being 'mine' on some primitive level, and if that makes me bad and selfish, well, it's a rare person who has a baby for anyone else's benefit.

Twinkie/Gomez - agree with what you're both saying. I don't smoke and personally hate smoking but I do know that it is an addiction and that many smokers would dearly love to give up - dh, for example had spent a fortune trying to but, so far, without success. Also, it's an addiction that is often started at any age when the smoker is too young/stupid to know any better. Why condemn someone to not having treatment they need just because of something they did when they were a daft 14 year old?
Also, what about the familes of smokers? Why should my children be left without a father just because someone has decided it's his own fault he's got lung canger, heart disease or whatever.
Also, as has already been said, why just pick on smokers. What about non-smokers, who eat unhealthily, never exercise and then become ill. Why should they have the right to treatment they need and smokers not.
FairyMum, think the point about the NHS needing more resources is a valid one, but where do you stop. I think that no matter how much money is put into the NHS, the demands will grow to meet the resources and then exceed them. Also, you and I, might be happy to pay more tax for a better funded NHS but it's obvious from the way politicians bang on about keeping tax down that not everyone feels the same way. Also, non parents often resent parents getting 'freebies' enough as it is (viz mears thread re parental leave), surely they will resent it even more if they are having to pay for people to become parents in the first place.
POP2005, I sincerely hope that you and your dw get the baby you want so much. I honestly don't know whether I think IVF should be free on the NHS. On the one hand, I do think that children are a 'gift' rather than a 'right', but having kids already I would think that. On the other, it seems only fair to let people have one try, but then where do you stop. Do think it's v unfair that access to treatment depends on where you live though.

I don't think people who want a baby are really so selfish or awful, just desperate and unlucky. One of my friends is in this position. But they saved up and have just been told that they do qualify for (one?) free go at IVF. I am glad. They will just be amazing parents and I am sure any child they have will be an great person and if anything like its parents will contribute to the world in a very positive way. My son is the best thing in the world to me. We are so incredibly grateful to have him and so grateful he came to us relatively easily. I'd rather my friends have a chance of IVF than we continue to pay zillions to keep the bleedin' Millenium Dome open, but of course there have to be some limits - unlimited free IVF for women in their late forties has to be a waste of money. Infertility may not be a disease per se, but it is often the sympton or side-effect of a disease, and the NHS treats those all the time. I think it is pointless to argue for IVF by saying other people with life threatening illnesses shouldn't be treated (your child may be one of those one day!) but it is reasonable to yearn for children and I think a free go of IVF for couples for whom it offers a reasonable chance of success, after several years of trying and for whom other treatments have failed, doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Dadslib, I didn't know your ds was an IVF baby. That must have been very stressful and hard on your relationship.

ohh exposive stuff here...and no one's even got round to talking about the proposed government clamp down on NHS tourists - those people who apparently come into the UK on holiday in order to get free treatment on the NHS. I remember reading an impassioned argument on here about how that is costing the NHS shed loads of money. Is this really true?

With my Mrs Compromise hat on, I think that first time IVF treatment should be available to all, irrespective of whether they can afford it at that present time. How? but making very long term, low interest loans available to those on the lowest incomes.

But still feel yes, when push comes to shove, a baby is a gift, and not a right. It's mother nature not the NHS that is cruel. People who are desperate to parent can always try to adopt or foster. And the NHS has a duty first and foremost it is to the living.

POP2005

I know exaxtly how you feel about having a child, I had my ds throught IVF but we were very fortunate that we got 3 attempts because of where we live. On our 3rd attempt which also failed, we had frozen embroys from that attempt so we paid for the 4th attempt ourselves which was a fraction of the cost of the full cycles previously paid by NHS. I think it is very wrong that it is done by where you live, I also agree with all your other comments. Also it is ok people having a go at what you say but do they know how it feels not having children. I certainly do. Wish you and your wife lots of luck in your future attempts.

Run Twinkie run!

Fairymum you are obvioulsy a kind hearted soul.

I have a serious questions and I am really asking to be educated by those with more experience I suppose but for me the joy of being a mother (as I am) was not the pregnancy or the birth experience but is all that comes afterwards. The sharing, growing, teaching, having fun bits that you do after the child is here. That is the bit I would like to share with others and I can't see that is is connected to having a 'baby' but is linked to sharing your life with a child. You don't need IVF to be able to do this.

I may be biased as I don't 'goo' over babies as such and if I am being honest found the first few months a bit a chore - although I did love my DD on first sight. I do however adore being a mother.

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Which bit DL?

Glad to hear you and your DW agree on some things!!

Maybe just kill anyone who is a bit unhappy. If they don't appreciate their lives then give them to someone else.

Man with bolt gun will be at my door shortly I fear.

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Just to clarify that I haven't said we shouldn't treat lung-cancer. I think we can afford it all. I think a lot more money should go into the NHS, but managed better! I would gladly pay more tax if that's what's needed. Both to treat lung cancer and to help childless couples conceive.
As a mother I would do anything for others to experience the same joy as myself!

Having a child is a hugely expensive business, both in money and commitment, however it's been conceived. I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but £1500 is a bit of a drop in the ocean really. If you want a kid, you should be prepared to pay.

It's definitely not fair that some people have to pay and some don't though - I agree it should be consistent.

So should formula 1 drivers who have an accident whilst competing (and anyone else who partakes in dangerous sports)be denied treatment, a woman needing intervention in child birth (pregnancy is self inflicted afterall) These are stupid argumemnts I know, but so is the 'IVF is more important than treating these people who harm themselves deliberatley'

Twinkie that's what I was saying durrrrrr! I mean that you have a choice with a car, to use or not to use (if you live somewhere with access to good public transport). Not so easy with cigarettes and alcohol

What about people in car accidents? It's their choice to go shooting about in dangerous vehicles, let them bleed on the side of the road.

This whole thing is ridiculous. It's obvious that if you are ill you should get treatment, regardless of how it is caused.

Re the IVF, the problem here and with lots of other things is that the NHS was not designed to deal with many of the sophisticated and expensive drugs and treatments available today. It was put in place to provide basic healthcare for all. If we want it to fund everything the we all have to pay for it. They should raise NI or create a better private healthcare system. I know, 2 tier, unfair, etc but what else can you do? There is not unlimited money.

Alternatively smash drug company cartels and make drugs cheaper. Then no money will go into research (so drug companies say) so no new cures will arrive and problem will resolve as the NHS will then not have to fork out for these new expensive drugs and therapies.

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AND they don't pay tax on food!!

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Yes yes yes but you don't get addicted to a car do you? The whole point of tabs is that you get hooked when you are young and stupid and then it can be very hard to give up.

Do you all think that alcoholics should not be treated either. Addiction is an illness too you know?

Not that I advocate smoking or drinking heavily.

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I happen to agree with Gomez. It does sound harsh, and as a parent I can only imagine the heartache caused by infertility, but there are other treatments that have to take priority IMO. It would be barbaric to deny somone treatmant for a 'self inflicted' ilness. Where would we draw the line at what was self inflicted and what wasn't?

Infertility is tragic, and in ideal world treatment should be free. But then in an ideal world no one would be infertile.