Clearblue Fertility Monitor Support Group Buddies Vol 5!!

im glad you agree....hubby is starting to think we should basically not be drinking when trying to conceive (i disagree, my argument lies in 'moderation' - a skill i have yet to demonstrate when it comes to wine!)

...dont know about anyone else but the prospect of another unfortunate 6 months without even a glass of wine to console me is rather too much to bare!

Wine, yuuummmmyyy!!!

thanks for that arabella, thats very sweet....i know what you mean though. i shouldnt be so negative though i need to be a fighter, ALWAYS!, people have to live with all sorts of hardship (but to be honest i did kind of feel that living with type 1 diabetes, a recurrent anxiety problem , and a career as a chartered accountant that i had my share of shite before all this baby stuff went wrong!!! )

heres a big shout out to everyone else who is sitting at their desk counting down the moments til they can go home...and possibly break out the wine?!

Ilovekitty, you need some sort of treat. You should arrange something nice for yourself to try to take your mind off things. You deserve it. Its just not fair.

I have my fingers crossed that all goes well for you soon.

thanks arabella....i think im just a bit all over the place. if its scar tissue it cant be picked up with ultrasound (thats the most likely complication that could cause MC)...

to be honest (and im sorry if this sounds callous or insensitive to all the ladies that struggle to even get to the miscarriage stage...), i do conceive easily so what i am going to do is perhaps see what happens when i finally do ovulate and if i have another early MC i will be straight down to the GP asking for investigation!

why cant this be easy and fun like it was for our mothers?!

And ilovekitty, its perfectly understandable to be pissed off/angry. There's no need to say sorry.

Aah, I see. Well why don't you ask for a gynae referral (or would it be obstetrics?) to discuss what the possible complications of a D&C could be and see if any more detailed checks can be done if necessary? That way you won't have to spend ages wondering and worrying? I mean do you know for sure that another less invasive investigation can't be of use, like ultrasound, without going straight to laparoscopy? If you're particularly worried and talk to your gp about this they may well refer you at your request even if you don't strictly meet the referral criteria.

Wasn't trying to suggest paranoia you know, just to reassure you. Because early miscarriages genuinely don't often mean a serious problem, I mean in my own circle of friends and family alone I know several women (all mothers) who've had miscarriages. Am not trying to poo-poo your fears

arabella what happened is that i had a baby with a trisomy back in august and had a termination at 14 weeks by D&C. after that i had a lot of pain etc and cycle not returning to normal and my GP (she - why does everyone assume a doctor will be male?!) said everything seemed fine.

we started trying again in november, i literally found out i was pregnant on the saturday and miscarried on the tuesday; to be honest that 3 day pregnancy caused me very little sadness after what we had already been through deciding to terminate, but just frustrating and im worried that the D&C caused some kind of issue; maybe it IS me being paranoid,things just do not feel right to me. GP thought the MC was just one of those things but to be honest they all say that until you have 3 miscarriages and qualify for referral to an appropriate specialist and a laparoscopy (which is the only way of detecting the type of issues caused by surgery).

sorry...im venting; just very pissed off at the moment. every time i go on facebook someone else has just given birth to a perfect baby or announced their healthy pregnancy and im just finding it very very hard.

Hi Ilovekitty, First of all I'm very sorry about what happened when you were pregnant before. I think that early miscarriage is very very common, and whilst it's highly upsetting it usually the case that you'll go on to have a healthy pregnancy. I think it's only if someone repeatedly miscarried early that it starts to become likely that something is wrong. You can look up information on that on various sites.

It's good that your gp was able to reassure you when you saw him, isn't it?
Does it take a while for your body to return to normal post-mc? If so, try not to worry too much about ovulation etc this first month as it's early days.

The CBFM booklet actually says it's not something to worry about if you don't get a peak, unless it's a repeated occurrence. Check it yourself to see.

Are you more concerned than you need to be just now? This would be understandable given what you've had to deal with.

hey knackered cow too tired and lazy to write a great deal more about it but your last post about herbals etc was fantastic thanks for taking the time to explain that all

having bleated on to everyone i know about the benefits of zinc and vitamins in fighting off winter colds i feel absolutely bloody lousy today! sitting at my desk with sore throat, bit of a headache, and feeling generally exhausted.

well i am pretty sure i am having an anovulatory cycle....so i counted day 2 of early miscarriage as day 1 of new cycle (helpfully this being december 1st). monitor went high on day 12 and i have had cramping now from day 13. it is day 16 and still no peak. anyone got any idea what this could be? i had quite a lot of random mid-cycle pains a few months ago after the D&C and my GP had a poke around and did some swabs and there was nothing overtly wrong. but at the back of mind there is a niggle that there IS something wrong, especially with the early MC.....any thoughts?

Hello ladies, hope you dont mind me joining you again?

Have been off the conception threads for a couple of months but started trying again this month.

Good to see some recent graduates on here - stormbird i recognise and just want to say congrats to you all :)

Well im starting the 2ww tomorrow i think (it could be today so ill wait and see what ff says) I got my first peak on cd13 two days ago which is the earliest i have ever got one but didnt get a positive opk till yesterday and have a feeling it was yesterday for actual ov too. One good thing about not trying for a little while is no 2ww i hated those!

Well ill put my stats on here but wont add them - could someone do that for me at all? I mess them up usually so wont attempt to do it.

Rosieposey TTC#5, Cycle #12, CBFM Cycle 6, age 38, UCL 29-35, CD15

LoL Thanks Arabella

Don't worry Knackered, I've got your back covered with my flamethrower should the need arise

Enjoying reading this debate.

St John's Wort does contain an active compound within in it (hypericum). Some herbal remedies at the right dosage can and do work although the caveat is that a person may not seek appropriate medical advice, as arabella said, and risk interaction with other medications.

My understanding with homeopathy is that the "active" ingredient is diluted down so much that it's the treatment is simply water or a sugar pill with no active compound. To my mind that's why no good quality study has ever shown homeopathy to be effective beyond the placebo effect.

Sorry, just making the distinction between herbal (which may contain an unrefined active ingredient and consequently work) and homeopathy where there is no active compound.

Some herbal remedies have been shown to work in good quality clinical trials. St John's Wort is one of them (The Cochrane Colllaboration, which seeks to look for the highest level of evidence looked at this), but the problem is getting the dosage right. The positive effect was found to be greater than placebo, but less than other anti-depressants. However, on the other side, there were less side effects. I guess though the benefits aren't quite great enough to make it worth Big Pharma developing it, and do remember it does reduce the effectiveness of some hormonal contraception, which is a bad major side effect for many women and, being cynical, massively reduces the market for the product. The reason I am cynical is until I gave up work recently I spent the last four years as a marketing manager for a medical company. Although I worked in devices rather than pharma, I saw us scrap a number of products at the R&D stage because, although they worked and would have really benefitted a patient, the potential market wasn't large enough to repay the costs and make a profit.

Anyway, I digressed. As far as I can see there is no good evidence for homeopathy.

But that is my personal opinion and I certainly don't want to upset anyone.

i agree....thats a really interesting point especially on st johns wort...i guess it holds a very unique position in the market - ie people who need an antidepressant that dont want to be labelled as taking an antidepressant; i've never tried st johns wort myself, iv suffered quite badly with anxiety over the years and to be honest i tend to manage it by undertaking a healthy lifestyle (mostly!), swimming, and taking the odd course of antidepressants when i get really bad; not ideal, but i know it gets me back on an even keel and yes, i would far rather do that in a medically supervised way...

It's an interesting debate. Ilovekittyelise - my main issue with st. Johns wort is that the dose varies significantly from brand to brand, and people don't know this without looking into it. They can just buy it without speaking to a doctor/ pharmacist. And it can interact with some prescription medicines. And some people mistakenly think because it's viewed as "herbal" that it's just like taking a vitamin and they don't have to worry about side effects. And some think it's safer than taking something prescribed by their doctor.

Why not get an antidepressant from a doctor who can at least tell you what the dose is and what the side effects/interactions are! They're both drugs after all!

Definitely interesting to think about! I like hearing others' opinions on this too

I'm enjoying everyone's thoughts on homeopathic remedies. I come from a science background (my undergrad degree is in chemistry, did some pharmacology electives also and have worked in a big pharma co).

I kind of think there is a broad line down the middle of homeopathy, between products and therapies that emulate drugs (whilst pretending not to) and therapies that work in a completely different way.

On the 'drug' front my thoughts are this. Take something like St John's wort, a 'natural' antidepressant. Compare this to various prescription medicines also derived from 'natural' sources (eg various types of antibiotics). The only real difference is that the homeopathic product is not licensed to be used for it's purpose. Obviously this is a fairly broad brush statement and i know there are exceptions; but if something which can be easily obtained with little R&D cost could be proven fit for purpose and patented by a pharma giant, believe me they would do it...if they can prove through pre and clinical trials that a particular group of molecules is fit for purpose they purify it and leap on whether it comes purely from a synthetic research lab of from the sap of the rare old gum tree whatever...

on the other hand, chinese medicine. i will admit i was a sceptic, but when a GP friend of mine was training in acupuncture to complement her traditional practice (which by the way is a concept i love, the two going hand in hand), i thought why not give it a go and be a free guinea pig for stress and constipation. i went in there with a good deal of healthy sceptcism and can only say i was amazed with the results. i left feeling the way i had previously only done after 6 months on antidepressants, got home, and did a big poo!

long opinionated rant over....in short, some of it's just garbage but i think its worth keeping an open mind!

I'll look out for that mitchell& Webb sketch. Agree wholeheartedly with you on the potential for such charlatans to take money from people while allowing them to believe their treatment can do more for them than is realistic. Even more so if it prevents the person from seeking medical help which is more likely to work.

It's different when the customer has realistic expectations of what can be achieved. Oh dear, this is all getting very serious

Same here. No offence is intended and the placebo effect is VERY powerful and real. Always seen in the control group whenever they test a new drug. The psychological effects of any sort of intervention are very strong. So I guess in that respect they do work.

Also, anything to aid relaxation and reduce stress is good too. I guess my only concern is that there are some charlatans out there who could take pecuniary advantage of a woman who is vulnerable and desperate to conceive.

Haven't heard Dara O'Briain but will have a look for the sketch. If you like that sort of thing have a look for Homeopathic A&E on You Tube. It was on That Mitchell & Webb Look

Knackered, have you ever heard Dara O'Briain holding forth on the topic of homeopathic remedies? Absolutely hilarious!! He talks about how the research world has tested ALL remedies, and the ones that have actually been shown to work are called "medicine". Mmmm, it's funnier when he tells it!

Having said that, I think if people find that homeopathic techniques help to relax them, then that is of real benefit when trying to conceive. Also, placebo effect can be very powerful if a person thinks something will work. I'm frightened of offending someone who uses homeopathy, but no offence is intended.

He's not a fan of them, but I can see his point. The issue he has is that women may use them and assume they are ovulating. However, in some medical conditions such as PCOS, LH levels are high all the time and so the sticks can give false positives.

On the flip side to that I'd argue they are fine if a woman knows she's ovulating. I also like the control they give and so if the effect is purely psychological, I don't think there's any harm in using them.

He thinks taking temperature daily is better, BUT it does only confirm ovulation (progesterone causes the elevation in temp). Obviously, it's too late to conceive by the time temperature is elevated.

I personally don't believe in alternative therapies because as far as I can see the evidence simply shows that the effect is placebo, so I am enjoying Winston's book. However, if you do believe in the use of acupuncture and homeopathy etc he is very scathing and so the book might not be for you.

The book is warmly written, easy to read and there's some funny stories in there about his own research. It's a good account of the history of fertility too.

I got my copy from Amazon. I think it cost around £7.

Knackered - I think I'll try to get hold of that book. I liked Winston's style of explaining things in his TV programmes. He manages to make scientific stuff sound not too dry. Does he make any comment on the usefulness of CBFM or ovulation sticks?

My pleasure.

There's a really good book by Robert Winsotn called A Child Against All Odds. It really does explain the science behind fertility from somebody who was a real pioneer in the field. I was unaware that he developed fallopian tube microsurgery. It's also worth a read if interested in the ethics of IVF and fertility treatment.

Knackered cow (love the name!), you have a fantastic knowledge of how this works - thank you for such a good explanation

Hi ilovekittyelise, I didn't get a peak this month til day 16, so I'm guessing yours could well arrive over the next couple of days.

I think men can feel very pursued when you're TTC which they're not always happy about, hee hee. I know that mine did last time

From your explanation of the ovulation/peak day relationship I think I'll almost certainly not be pregnant this month(I'm not supposed to be trying this month you see because of work, hence the reassurance-seeking!