The Narnia books - oh my goodness

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great (pre 1960) children's books that celebrate difference, independence and tolerance
EH Nesbit
Noel Steatfeild
Just william stories
Gerald Durrell
Dr Suess

well i survived the subliminal messages

the kind of history and geography books i enjoyed reading when i was 8 were a lot worse and i havent grown up with the views expressed therein

But the purpose of these books is to put across subliminal messages - there are propaganda, pure and simple. Other books from this era have questionable language and so on, but you can talk about it and challenge it. If you challenge the messages of Narnia there's not much left!

Ok, though I agree about some not too nice subliminal messages, who can think of books written before about 1960 which don't have any undesirable subliminal messages?

I like Tolkein but am not keen on his portrayal of women/girls/female anything. Nor do I like his emphasis on monarchy and patriarchal dynasties, nor his emphasis on war as the way to Further Good in the World. etc. but I would still read him to my dds.

oh yes and think lewis is really upfront about this. Think Aslan says to Lucy in voyage of the dawn treader something about bringing her to narnia so that when she hears him (aslan) called by another name she will understand and love him more

Thing is, I think it's worse if it does go over children's heads. That way they get the subliminal messages - particularly the ones about women - but there isn't any opportunity to debate them.

imo it is not the christian overtones that bother me but the fact that this christianity is so routed in imperialism, cold showers, public schools and women being only being allowed some independence before their sexual maturity. Read his grown up equivalents (out of the silent planet etc. ) and cringe

Pullman on CS Lewis here

I read the Narnia series over and over again as a child, until someone told me that they were all Christian propaganda. I felt cheated and betrayed and never opened them again until almost 30 years later.

Last year I read them again and I found the actual Christian themes to be fairly light, and maybe not worth getting upset about after all except in The Last Battle which was pretty dire. I agree that they have a racist streak, but I think CS Lewis went out of his way to create some "good" Calmorenes, too.

I read them as a child and never noticed any of the underlying Christian (or other) themes. In fact it wasn't until DH mentioned it when we saw the first movie that I realised it was even there.
Sometimes things go over kids' heads. I'd like to think of myself as pretty intelligent, and I have always been an avid reader, but it was the adventure part of the stories that I liked.

The same debate has been raised about Harry Potter... and again, I think kids will take what they want to take from a story, regardless of any hidden 'propaganda' which is then completely innefectual and harmless.

What about the Dark Materials trilogy? I read that last year and was quite surprised at some of the themes it contained.

We've been reading them to the dc, cos I really loved them as a child. I do find them too racist and stopped short of reading the Last Battle which I think is the worst, IIRC.

But if you want to read books from previous generations it's quite hard to avoid all the books with any racist, sexist, classist, imperialist, religious undercurrents. I think you can read them but be a bit critical, and teach the dc to read critically. Otherwise you can miss out on almost all literature from previous generations.

I think the Christian allegories aren't picked up on by the children, I didn't notice them as a child even though they were pointed out to me, I still just read the books as adventure stories.

Sorry, I meant to say - I adored the books as a child.

I absolutely adored the Narnia books and cried my eyes out when I read "The Last Battle". The racism and sexism compleetly passed me by - children just aren't looking out for that sort of thing - but what really did affect me was the dubious attitude towards growing older and becoming a woman. Narnia and all its magic is only accessible to the children. The minute they start showing signs of adolescence they are no longer able to enter. This message really sank in with me - I didn't want to grow up at all.

But maybe it's just me

Be warned - Prince Caspian is a dire film. Two and a half hours of my life I WANT BACK!

i read them a lot when i was 8/ 9

never noticed the christian analogy

they are typical of middle class kids stuff from the time
like e nesbit and e edgar etc for language

i did have the rip taken out of me fro srting to use the word spiffing which i picked up from a book...not a narnia one lol

Never thought they were racist tbh.

Christian analogy is well known. I certainly recall realising as a child that Aslan was Jesus and the Emperor over the sea was God.
But I was brought up in a church-going household so maybe it?s not surprising. Have already had the chat with the DCs about that before seeing first film as of course Aslan dies (we go to church so it didn?t alarm them too much)

Not really seeker, it goes over most childrens heads that it's Christian. I never knew until someone told me as an adult and then it all made sense.

The allegory is there for the adults, not the children.

Oh, I could deconstruct Peter Pan for you if you like - but that was not written specifically to evangelize - and the Narnia books were.

A Grief Observed is a wonderful, searing book. The Screwtape Letters are funny and not pretending to be anything but Christian apologia. Narnia is sailing under false colours!

Best not read Peter Pan then eh?

Last Battle is not only racist, but quite shockingly violent. I only read it as an adult (read some of the others as a child) and it turned my stomach tbh. I wouldn't stop my children reading it themselves when they're older, but I really won't want to read it aloud to them, because I don't like the idea of dwelling on the punitive, vindictive violence.

Well I find them better than my child reading some shite modern tale where the central female characters jabber on about hair, make-up and clothes. The message we are sending out to our girls through books today is that you must look good at every opportunity. Education and brains mean nothing compared to good looks. Have a look at the TV and in these books - the main characters are good looking girls and if a character has a brain then she is usually the plain Jane.

I read them as a child in Catholic environment and just enjoyed the adventure side of it, a lot of the 'set pieces' are still fresh in my mind.
Re reading them as an adult I could be critical of it but it still strikes me as honest iyswim

and being an atheist I still found CSL book 'a grief observed' quite helpful while grieving myself

Good stories with subliminal messages - I am prepared to bet that if those messages were anything but Christian people would be much less happy with their children reading them.