The Narnia books - oh my goodness

"great (pre 1960) children's books that celebrate difference, independence and tolerance
EH Nesbit
Noel Steatfeild
Just william stories
Gerald Durrell
Dr Suess"

Some of my favourite authors there but E Nesbitt and Noel Streatfield do have racist and classist undercurrents. All that Genteel British Poverty. The Fossil girls - too "poor" to go to school? As if there were no state schools in London in the 1930s. And yet they had servants (albeit worthy retainers who didn't claim their full salaries). The Treasure Seekers are similarly too poor to go to school but not too poor to have servants. You might not find that as repulsive as CS Lewis's racism, but there's a lot of very subtle messaages about class and race and imperialism in those books. Much as I love them, I don't think they are always giving a message I'd be proud for my children to pick up.

Gerald Durrell, maybe. I only vaguely remember the Talking Parcel, I don't think I could accurately critique it from my memory.

Just William. I'd have to look but I suspect there are rather racist classist etc elements in there.

Dr Seuss. Different sort of book. Doesn't compare. Too hard to tell whether a Wocket is being socially snubbed by a Foxinsox, etc.

I got arrested... Well hauled put into handcuffs and loaded into police wagon with other protesters during the springbok rugby tour of nz of 1981. That would make me 11 at the time
and did march for the homsexual law reform bill in nz in 1986 too. Also an anti rape women reclaim the streets march in the early 1980's and the CND anti nuke demos against the us in 1983. My mum was a bra burning husband leaving feminist, hence my entry to activism!
I am actually quite conservative now in comparison!
and ds1 is infact, a lightweight wannabe liberal!

My Secret Seven reader is shaping up to be quite prolific also. So it should only form a part of his reading matter if I actually get round to purchasing them - have today sent DH to shop for yet another Astrosaurs book (yawn but at least he reads them to himself) and Little Miss Twins (yawn again but at least DH likes reading them to her and it is his turn tonight) as DD finished her reward chart finally.

I have to say though that at 14 I was not very liberal. I have become much more liberal with age - which is unusual I suppose. It took me until I watched the first film to realise why I go TLTWTW as a Sunday school prize though so probably not very astute either.

prolific reader zippi from v young

im impresed you had a boy who read atall piffle

my ds is 20 and i can guarantee he has never read a book

I read them inside out as a kid and never took on any racist meaning, the christian analogy obviously passed me by totally as well. I am a committed atheist, liberal (complete with bleeding heart) and pinko.
ds1 read them from age 5 and up, he is more of a god denier than me and more astutely liberal as a 14 yr old than I ever was. Part of a broadly balanced reading mix and no harm is done imho. Counterbalanced in our case with lashings of harry potter and monty python. And as age grew the odd viz magazine

I would let DS read both Narnia and HDM (which DH and I have both read recently) but think at 7 he is probably a bit young for HDM yet. He is currently reading that bastion of political correctness - The Secret Seven.

By zippitippitoes on Thu 10-Jul-08 13:13:08
ime people who liked reading narnia books as children are generally people who like reading

and probably mostly women and quite broadminded and lefty liberal

Yep that is a pretty good description of me.

Message withdrawn

I loved the Narnia books as a child and have recently re-read them to my boys who also loved them. The stories have really got them using their imaginations and the graden shed is now a portal to Narnia. We've just bought them the bbc version on dvd and is been on constantly for the last few days! I get the Christian message but don't see a problem with it, i've never seen it as trying to brainwash children into Christianity although mine definately have more interested in lions in general.

zippi I think that is the understatement of the century

maybe the lesson is that ardent Christians and ardent atheists run the risk of being boring if they let that take over their work...

I enjoyed Narnia as a child because my big sister read them to me, and I adored my big sister. We were a Christian household so the allegories (which are pretty obvious if you know your Bible stories) weren't a problem. I got uncomfortable reading them again as a teenager, mainly because of the sexism (the girls might occasionally be the "good" ones, but mostly in a way that made me very uncomfortable) but also the racism, which is more about Orientalism (cruel Ali Bab Ba types). I also really really disliked the Last Battle thesis because it completely dismissed other faiths - it's OK, you believed the wrong thing, but as you were good you can come to my heaven anyway. Yuk Yuk. Arrogance or what. So I left them on my bookshelf untouched for a long time. The children wanted them read to them after seeing TLTWTW (which I thought was great first time and then became obviously very thin on rewatching) so I reread and decided that I really didn't want to read them aloud to them as the language is incredibly stilted. They have had them on CD instead. Actually although I think the films are thin, they have updated them quite effectively.

I thin the important thing is to be exposed to lots of different ways of looking at the world as children, and to develop critical thinking early on. So long as your kids can think whilst they read, and they don't have a permanent diet of 50's values they should be fine.

they might have been intending to...but they failed pretty dismally

i think his dark materials had intentions other than being a good read too

As I've said before, the difference between these books and the others of the time is that these are INTENDED to prosletyze.

The fact that the Fon of Bafut was represented as a comic character is characteristic of the times in which it was written.

and i am totally torn between wanting to read them again and thin king there are so many books i havent read once yet

you all have awfully good memories i couldnt discuss the books in detail because it is about 45 years since i read them

i struggle to remember the details of books i read a few months ago!

I don't think CS Lewis is particularly sexist or racist. I'm sure the prevailing views of his time influenced him eg although Susan is a fab archer, she must be protected and not allowed to participate in the battle. And while the Calormenes are generally not portrayed favourably, I never got the impression that this was because they were dark-skinned. I think he just picked upon Middle Eastern culture as being very different from the Narnians, to provide narrative interest. I don't think they're supposed to be Muslims as they're polytheistic.

I also disagree that Susan is excluded from Narnia because of her interest in lipstick and boys. She excludes herself, because her interest in these things replaces her interest in Aslan. I'm pretty sure he's not saying you can't like boys and Aslan.

BellaBear - Why did you think 'Calormenes' were obviously meant to be Turkish?

I always thought author of Narnia had a Turkish connection - 'aslan' is the word in Turkish for 'lion', Turkic states like Azerbaijan & Turkmenistan surround 'Caspian Sea', etc.

ime people who liked reading narnia books as children are generally people who like reading

and probably mostly women and quite broadminded and lefty liberal

in fact, given my childhood reading habits I should be a highly religious, racist, misogynistic housewife with a talent for sewing and making my own cheese. Hmm.

a lot of the books I read as a child (and enjoyed) have wither been 'edited' for a modern audience or quietly hidden:

Just William (the painted dog was taken out IIRC)
Dr Doolittle
John Buchan
Enid Blyton

do you think you are influenced by the books you read tho?

i have read such a huge variety of books they presumably just counteracxt each other

Just re-read the series and they are good stories. I think the racism element is very much of Lewis's time and his mindset. The problem I have is that the blatant allegory in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe just makes that book really dull for me. I mean, why not show a bit more imagination?

Thw Voyage of the Dawn Treader and the Silver Chair are still very good reads (as is the Magician's Nephew).

Interesting.
The racist/sexist overtones completely escaped me when I first read the Narnia books at the age of seven. I remember exhorting my own mum to read them, because I couldn't see how anyone could fail to love such fantastic adventure stories.

I re-read them as an early teen, when my little sisters were reading them, and started to feel uncomfortable with the sexism. The Christian part still escaped me even then!

However, I didn't really think it was that big a deal, mainly because I'd been raised on an almost exclusive diet of Puffin Classics: Tom Brown's Schooldays, A Little Princess, and all that. These were horrendously racist and sexist, so much so that I thought it was most unfair that I was not a boy and therefore could not have adventures, own a Stanley-knife, learn Latin or go to university .

Maybe my mum should have read the books she was giving me, after all.