The Narnia books - oh my goodness

Yes, she was the Wren, but I seem to remember that she spent the book getting rescued by others. And I suppose true that Biggles wasn't sexist as such, but not what you would call a strong female role model.

Was she the Wren? I think I read one but no, it wasn't gripping.

not quite sure that Biggles was actually sexist, I think he only met one woman in his whole life, IIRC. Marie the sexy spy. Apart from that it was men friends and menservants and batmen all the way.

Did anyone else ever read any Worrals books? I guess that was the concession to girl readers, seem to remember that they were pretty rubbish though.

Algy was Biggles' cousin. I think he preferred Ginger, the luscious young boy.

Hmm - perhaps I should worry more about DD's reading matter and alarmingly religious schooling - have wondered before if I am just being optimistic and sticking my head in the sand

You and me both, Fennel . He always seemed more interested in Algy though...

I do agree with you about both Lewis and Pullman both pushing a particular world view. It's part of bringing up discerning readers to expose them to a range of literature that has an opinion and isn't just crowd-pleasing thoughtless pap (although we do read that too ).

Not sure about that Takver, I grew up in an evangelical christian household (and reading all sorts of books) but as an adult I'm an atheist feminist republican leftie. Not like my parents.

Reading overrode parental influence in my case.

I do wonder how much of an issue it is - I think that the way we live in our everyday lives & the messages we give to our dcs really overwhelms the effect of the books they read.
Have to say, I grew up reading Biggles, Jennings, Narnia, EE Nesbit, Just William et al, also went to a C of E primary with prayers twice a day - but ended up an atheist/agnostic left wing liberal with anarchist leanings - funnily enough, rather much like my parents . . .

I loved Biggles. I had a bit of a crush on him.

Seeker, I'm not totally convinced the Narnia stories were explicitly written as propoganda, but even if they were, I think an argument could be made for Philip Pullman's Northern Lights trilogy being written as atheist propoganda. They are very definitely pushing a particular world view and creation view. Perhaps as much as the Narnia stories.

I would rather like my children to read both and be able to note the differences and compare them.

Fennel, I agree that it can be really helpful discussing things in books - although I do remember blanching when my 6 yr old DD got to the very full on bit with the settlers being scared that the native americans were about to massacre them at the end of Little House on the Prairie. (Interestingly there Laura's dad has a quite liberal/modern attitude and points out that they were there first and the settlers are the ones taking away their land).
I'm also not sure how I could control dd's reading short of not taking her to the library. Question is, when she gets to the age for them, do I give her all my old Biggles books out of my box upstairs? Now there's a good selection of classist, sexist and racist attitudes for you.

EffiePerine, I'd agree, coming across these attitudes in books is a good way of thinking and talking about them. Also it's enjoyable - I love discussing these issues with my dds when they read a book which surprises or confuses them. It's one of my favourite bits of parenting so far.

Lemony Snicket and Harry Potter are full of similar child neglect and abuse themes. I think children just enjoy it. (Mine love books where children are smacked - they still giggle at the memory of Topsy and Tim running away and getting their breeches dusted. They used to play out that scenario endlessly.)

I can't actually think of any book I've censored yet for my dds. though I don't go out and buy them rainbow fairy or magic kitten or secret unicorn, and they haven't read many of those type. But short of porn or teenage horror stories, I'd let them read most things.

but then controlling kids behaviour seems a bit of a theme these days

either too much or too little and letting them "run wild"

this is definitely the bit where i part compsny with modern parenting....when people talk about how much they exert influence over their kids choices in everything

if you cant even choose a book and be allowwed to read the whole thing inpeace i think that is very restricting sand weird

and lots of parents are v disapproving of books like Jaq Wilson - why??? Do we only only nice fluffy books with rock solid liberal principles

this is interesting when i was 7 plus i chose my own books...and was very anti any my mum suggested..

we went to the library and she sometimes used to say this is one diana (my 6 years older sister) liked and because i was conttrary and stubborn i used to think well i'm not having that then..she seemed to like polyanna and anne of green gables books i have not read to this day

i can't imasgine how my mum would have kept books from me short of locking me up

if i liked a book by an author i would go back and find the rest

i also used to buy my own books on a saturday morning in smiths...

i discovered for myself new authorsa like alan garner...my mum certasinly never read his books

and out of my three kids only dd1 is a keen reader and she chose her own books too...i never censored them...she read all those babysitters books buty also clasics like swallows and amazons

we dont have the same taste now she seems to like grisham lee childs stuff

i cant imagine censoring kids reading which seems to be a popular idea on mn

Haven't got to the stage where DS is reading on his own, but I am v uncomfortable with the idea of editing books - why not just explain why some bits are in there? They have to deal with racism, sexism and general nastiness in the real worls, surely dealing with it in books is a safe way of thinking about these things?

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But seeker, most parents who buy the Narnia books know that and therefore are making that choice for their children.

I read Narnia to dd every night, I know the religious theme behind it, I also read her the Bible. I make a choice to introduce my child to these topics. As I said before, if you don't like it you don't read it. I doubt there's an adult alive who doesn't now know the religious connotations of Narnia, and if there is, what's the harm? Most Christian principles are of humility, justice, fairness, friendship, wisdom, love and so on, which this book promotes. If you're an athiest then the books provide good grounding for a moral lifestyle.

It's like reading Bible stories to children as just that, stories. I know many athiests who do this. They don't believe their children are going to convert just by reading a story.

I do consider very carefully what my children read (whatever era it comes from) and what they watch and access via the Internet. I have no problem with them dealing with dark and difficult themes - that's partly what reading is for, to experience other lives and circumstances.

My problem with Narnia is that was written as propaganda. They are considered the archetypal children's books - but they are really no more than evangelizing tracts - and worse, they evangelize by stealth!

It's a bit like those beach missions that play really interesting games, encourage children to join in, then do the "God" talk.

I don't see why you are assuming that parents who have concerns about reading Narnia and other dated books don't have concerns about modern reading matter too. I check all the books I buy for my two (mostly I have to admit because I really enjoy reading well written children's books) and certainly those I read aloud to them. They don't have mobiles and I check the cites they use on the internet. I suspect most of the other posters on this thread do to. And there have been plenty of threads about the horribly inappropriate clothes available for both boys and girls. A good mix and conversations about values help too. (But I still wouldn't let Enid Blyton in the house!)

How about Roald Dahl whose central characters - all white you will notice - are children whose parents have died and the children are being brought up in abusive circumstances.

Ok, they do have happy endings. But if you analyse any book you will find whatever undertone it is you are looking for I am sure. dd has asked more questions concerning the Roald Dahl books than she has about the Narnia books and there have been times during the Dahl books, The Witches for instance, that I've edited hugely because I felt parts were just too inappropriate and bloody terrifying for her!

If you don't like a certain book then you don't read it. Simple as. But at times I think we are guilty of reading too much into things and are terrified of our children being "brainwashed", yet we are happy to let our children on the pc, use mobile phones, and read trashy books that go on about hair, fashion and make-up that I mentioned previously. In fact today's society is much more sexist than 50 years ago because at least then it was blatant sexism, whereas today much of it is subliminal. Little girls are meant to be girly girls and play with barbies, do their hair and wear totally inappropriate clothes that have things like "sexy babe" on them - not to mention the thongs aimed at young girls.

Narnia is feminist compared to today's society.

I would suggest that nearly all books for children or adults written before about the last 40 years have these elements we probably wouldn't accept in something written now. But part of learning to read widely is learning about the context and the ways people thought in different times and places.

Even young children can manage that. My 6yo is very interested in E Nesbitt. With my 8 and 6yo we've also read Little women (they didn't understand that, too young), Anne of Green Gables, A little Princess, and all sorts of old classics which one could critique quite easily. But my 6yo is capable of wondering about these things too, she notes the different language and behaviour and attitudes. I think it's partly why she's so interested in some of these old books even when she finds them difficult to understand.

I am not too keen on my children reading explicitly religious books but my dd1 (8) is rather too keen on a book of Bible Stories she was given. She loves it. I don't stop her reading it. Though I don't like many of the messages it's giving at all. but we discuss it. the theology and ethics of Noah and the Flood, for instance.

I suppose what i meant is that all these authors celebrate aspects of childhood and/or growing up that the Narnia books want children to repress

It's hard to decide what to do about children's books that you loved yourself but think are a bit undesirable, for any reason. I think my nieces have been encouraged to read Little Women, but have had the existence of Good Wives and the other sequels kept from them - if they find it themselves, that's another matter.

I read Narnia aged 11, I guess quite late, and I think that is an absolutely prime age for massive religiosity, perhaps because it is a prime age for realising about the reality of external threats and dangers? (not much psychological knowledge here). I developed a weird religious mix whereby I prayed both to Jesus and Aslan (for help to stop masturbating, usually . I think I just thought it was a coincidence that they both died and came back to life - not too bright. It is all a very specific view of life, but maybe that's true of all authors children like?

Just William definitely has the classist element you get in Enid Blyton or Noel Streatfield or whatever.