The Narnia books - oh my goodness

have just started reading cs lewis books at bedtime for 8 yr old ds who absolutely loves thm -admittedly is very into sword fighting etc / Was surprised he liked them so much given old fashioned language etc but am looking at it as prob widening his vocab if nothing else! Having said that, loved them as child myself but never ever got christian message until I re read them as adult!

I agree Cory that some are awful - but there are plenty which may be from an adult viewpoint tedious & repetitive, but are reasonably sound. Eg the Animal Ark books - two main characters are girl and her boy best friend. Ditto My Secret Unicorn, again girl main character with boy introduced as secondary friend character.
OK, better that they read CS Lewis - but there are plenty of 'easy reads' that aren't that bad.

I agree. I'd much rather my daughter got her view of girls from Aravis and Lucy and Jill in the Narnia books than from Jacq. Wilson.

At least they do interesting things.

Some posters have hinted at what I feel is an important point, namely that modern books also push a world view, but that we don't necessarily notice it so much (which presumably means it has a greater chance of influencing our subconscious). Certainly a large proportion of the books that dd brought home from the school library were based on a number of assumptions that I do not necessarily subscribe to:

that boys and girls are so unlike each other that a non-sexual friendship is almost impossible (nobody knew that in my day)

that being a girl is about being pretty, wearing the right things and associating with other girls

that the things you own define you as a person

that shopping is an essential part of everybody's life (and no, I don't mean shopping for basic groceries)

that glamour is as important, if not more, than hard work

IMO the way girly girls are portrayed in many modern books is just as sexist as the Narnia series, just less centered around housewife image and more around the glamour puss idea. Which I do not find any more attractive.

So I think a mix of books from different periods is probably the best way to go. But whatever you are doing- you do have to get those parents out of the way; as PG says, it's an essential plot device.

Yes we'd all be yelling things like "No you are NOT entering the TriWizard tournament you are UNDERAGE" and spoiling the fun, wouldn't we?

The Harry Potter series is truly shallow though. It doesn't explore any of the issues that the protagonists have, apart from endless drivel about whether Ron would be upset if Harry dates his sister etc. This from a kid who has survived (apparently) unscathed from significant emotional neglect bordering on abuse.
I don't think that the racism about the Calormenes is about calling them "darkies" that's fairly superficial it is about the depiction as cruel and mysterious. It's the subtle stuff you have to watch out for.

Yup, PG's right - if the parents were around, nothing would happen. It would be 'got up, was made to brush my teeth, watched CBBC, went out on my bike, lunch, tea, bath, bed'.

Don't the children have to be neglected by adults in so many books in order to get the adults out of the way and stop them meddling in the children's adventures? I never thought that was sinister, more of a plot device.

I adored the Narnia books as a kid and read and re-read them endlessly. It was only when I re-read them in my 20s that I realised how overtly Christian the message was. It had compltely passed me by as a kid. And, as Cory says, the ones calling the Calormenes 'darkies' are the bad guys. I also read Enid Blyton who in my opinion is blatantly racist (especially in relation to gypsies) and sexist, but I turned out ok!

Note that the ones who call the Calormen darkies are not the heroes- they are the dwarves whose blinkered attitude brings most of them to a sticky end.

And as somebody else mentioned, Aravis is not exactly the little homebody, yet she is shown as a positive example of a woman. And there is no suggestion that she dwindles into a meek little yes-woman on marriage.

I have enjoyed reading the Narnia books with my children and discussing the allegory etc. There are obvious problems with the 1950's attitudes- but that only makes for better discussions IMO.

I also have problems with attitudes in many more contemporary children's writers. The Harry Potter books for instance, though very good in many ways, give in meekly to the assumption that material goods are necessary to self-esteem: Ron Weasley is never pulled up on this one, but allowed to wallow in self-pity from the first volume on, though he is actually perfectly well looked after. His parents go through book after book apologising because he has second-hand robes- my dc's would have to wait a long time for an apology from me! Having the latest broom is seen a necessary part of the hero's happiness. And so on and so forth.

If I banned every author whose ideas I didn't agree with, dc's would not be reading a lot. I think it is better to encourage them to read critically and suck the nectar from different flowers as my medieval monks would say.

Perhaps we need a thread of positive books that we can encourage our children to read? Maybe I'll start one sometime when I'm not supposed to be cooking tea & planting cabbages And no pink.

I think it's the mix that's important, and I also think you have to bear in mind the difference between censoring when you read aloud, which is mostly a matter of leaving out a line or two you feel uncomfortable reading and actively preventing an older child from reading particular books. Which is probably impossible. My kids are not yet at the stage of choosing their chapter books independently so I play a very active role in selection. Ds is still a very reluctant reader at 9, whereas I was a total bookworm, so I'd rather if he reads very little to make sure what he does read is decent stuff (and engaging enough to make him want to read more). I don't encourage him to read older books to himself because the language is often quite difficult which would put him off to. At the moment that mostly means Asterix! dd I like to read books with strong roles for girls as otherwise she would very easily slip into "pink" books which I hate hate hate, and will actively censor for as long as I can (so nur )

In my dd's favour though, she does love Antonia Forest and Anne McCaffery!

Two doughnuts meet in a pub. One says "What's your sign?" The other says "I'm a taurus"

Or renowned? whatever...

We used to go on Physics A level trips round nuclear power stations and jet stations. Me and the 12 boys in my physics class. I found it impossible to concentrate on the science, age 16, as soon as we passed any sort of security check on entry to these buildings, my mind took me straight into my secret service fantasies and I became the reknowned spy (codename Willow Winwallow), investigating the enemy territory.

I didn't learn a thing about physics. Still have no idea what a jet taurus engine (?) is.

Eee, Biggles, yon lass says we're right mardy"

Biggles spun on his heel, a lighted cigarette between his lips, staring at Ginger with hazel eyes etched with lines that war had drawn.

"We don't tolerate such talk. Bertie, bring on the Extreme Elocution Teacher" he barked

Bertie's eyes widened

"Right-oh, old man"

"And don't say right-oh!"

Could have been worse, Fennel, I wasn't even lusting over the fictional men, but imagining myself flying over france, or a little later somewhere out halfway across the galaxy on a spaceship.

And 'slow and boring', what can I say, the youth of today . . .

"Biggles slow and boring!" ejaculated Fennel. "Surely not" expostulated Algy.
"Good grief" opined Bertie, polishing his monacle.

There was a woman once - Biggles fell very heavily for a French girl - I think she turned out to ba a German spy - can't quite remember, but it put him off women for life.

I was a secret service agent . Also rather inspired by John le Carre (I had a crush on Bill in Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy too, perhaps that was after the Biggles phase)

oh dear it gets very embarrassing, remembering all my teenage literary crushes. I really should have been out there shagging passing teenage boys, not lusting after all these fictional men).

Oh, how I fancied Ginger! And Algy too. Now there's a name for a baby name thread!

I've tried my dd on Biggles - she thinks its slow and boring!

Maybe books like Biggles with no women at all are less of an issue than others of that era - as a girl reader you still identify with whichever of the main characters takes your fancy (definitely saw myself as a bit of a flying ace )

Interesting question whether you can be sexist if you are effectively unaware of there being another sex than your own.

CS Lewis is similar, I think he never actually knew any women or girls til the end of his life when he married an independent argumentative divorcee. I rather hope she gave him a hard time over his sexist attitudes.