Some Fretwork and the Interminable Christmas Play at the Chalet School

Oh, but I was just beginning to get the hang of the local dialect.

Are the triplets ever in separate forms? I seem to vaguely recall that there is some debate about whether Margot can be allowed to move up with the rest of them (is this possibly around the time of Barbara and whether/when they can move to Switzerland, or have I totally invented that?)

I sort of like the idea of Inter V in principle (as a peculiar set of variously-awkward pupils - too-young too-clever children like the triplets, barely-educated older girls like Yseult) although I suppose that such a cohort could just as easily exist in one of the fourths. In practice it is ridiculous because it is so obviously an attempt to restrain the rising-too-rapidly triplets, plus there's the extra nonsense of giving this experimental form to the new graduate rather than someone who has actual teaching/CS experience. (I can't remember, has Kathie even done something resembling teacher training or is it just a maths degree? I know that some of the younger ones have gone to teacher training college - including Sharlie wossname - and from quite early on her games mistresses are trained as such, but I'm not sure that Kathie is.)

I think I skipped straight over the Oberland panto - as I invariably do all productions. I can imagine EBD having great fun writing them - I'm sure almost every one is based on an actual school performance she'd worked on or witnessed - but I have never ever ever found them anything but boring!

Have the drains gone bad again? Or is it subsidence in the yurt?

Re BendingSpoons' question about girls moving up forms based on ability - the issue of there being areas of maths etc that girls had missed does come up a few times. Is it Bride in Lavender Laughs who has been moved up but has missed some stuff by doing it? And then you get Inter V, which is created entirely because EBD had been merrily moving the Triplets up the school before realising that they're only 12 and about to go into a Fifth Form. I just do not believe that any girls ought to have been able to advance so quickly through the forms, nor that not only Len, the born student, but Con (crap at maths) and Margot (brilliant but liked to go bust and rest on her oars) who wound up in Inter V instead of one of the Fourths or even Thirds.

There's also a general consideration that she didn't write most of Prefects and possibly the one before.

Really? I didn't know that. The one before is Althea, nicht wahr? Which I haven't read in ages because I tend to lose interest after the wonderful bonkers-ness of Redheads and I can't remember much about it other than the beatniks on the train.

Much as I enjoyed Oberland I have to say that the panto chapter is one of EBD's most tedious production scenes and I wasn't sure what to make of the 'knowing' names of the characters, especially the tipsy butler Mynsabeer. Presumably EBD wouldn't have written that into her usual schoolgirl books, so she did think she was writing for an older audience.

at the line about Aunt Fanny. I think that might have to be the winner.

Where do you fancy going next, EmilyAlice? The world's our oyster, so long as there's room for the San and for Joey's tribe.

I think EBD did know she was dying.
There's also a general consideration that she didn't write most of Prefects and possibly the one before.

Re Len/Reg - do we know whether EBD knew she was dying? Perhaps Prefects wasn't intended to be the final book at all. What did she actually die of? (Vile construction! Never end a sentence with a preposition! If 'of' is a preposition - I wouldn't know!)

I read the uncut version of Oberland aged about 8 and any euphemistic meanings for 'engaged' went right over my head! I didn't like it much as a kid - must re-read it! Is the uncut version on OneDrive? I thought from reading it that Peggy must be this major character in the series and she's just not, really! You get more about the Bride/Tom/Elfie/Primrose set (with additions of Lavender Leigh, the Ozanne twins and Rosalie Way/Browne) than we ever do about Peggy and her little chums. As far as I recall, Peggy features as a minor character in Lavender Laughs before Peggy and that's about it, bar appearances in the Die Rosen nursery previously (by the way, I am sure that Peggy is another character like Cornelia whose age must go a bit screw-whiff over the years!). And even in Peggy, Polly Winterton takes up a lot of the book. I don't recall much Peggy in Carola or Wrong. But here she is at the beginning of Oberland being feted by all and sundry (apart from Evil Elma, natch).

Re nicht wahr, I always took it to be the German equivalent of n'est-ce pas - which when I did French at university we found over 200 translations for. I suppose the English equivalent would be innit, but I couldn't afford the fines :o

Accessing high heels in size 10 left me with ads for drag shoes for about 6 months though. As bad as penguin bollards.

Oh no they're not!!

I sometimes fantasise that while EBD was churning out writing the Swiss CS books for income, she was enjoying herself writing some other completely different series considered unpublishable at the time. Maybe a next generation of La Rochelles, or the complete tales of the Republic of Belsornia, or perhaps some 'grown-up' school stories mostly located in staffrooms, a bit like War Among Ladies. One day soon they're going to be found, I just know it...

Penguin bollards?! Dare I ask?

mornington - oops! I actually hadn't thought about how old she would have been really - more that she was repeatedly asserting how displeased she was with all aspects of modern life (as you point out - grubby beatniks and all) and also I suppose the way that she was definitely past her prime writing-wise (although quite possibly that was boredom with the CS specifically, rather than a real decline in her abilities, or the increasing distance between her life and those of her readers, compared to when she was still teaching or had friends with children of school age etc).
I shall blame my lapse on my current focus on Regiment of Women, where Clare is definitely bordering on Past It at the ripe old age of 35... (There is something interesting I'm toying with ATM about the prospective outcomes for the spinsters in there - thinking about how Elsbeth guarantees her own future via Alwynne's match with Roger, vs Henrietta Vigers who leaves Utterbridge unemployable, friendless and poor.)

You are more generous than me, re: Gretchen am Spinnrade, and quite probably right. I'd assumed EBD just forgot. She doesn't reappear, anyway. Clearly the theme is supposed to echo the Elma thing, but it would be interesting to know what her story was - I'm quite sure she was supposed to have one!

mormington bagsie doing the costumes for the panto. We had to source a horse last year which was a challenge as we couldn't find one we liked under £200 which was silly for 6 performances. We eventually got lent one.
I love particularly the fun of doing the dame costumes. particularly exclaiming delightedly in Primark "That's be brilliant for the bedroom scene for one of the Ugly sisters" and looking up to see a lady glaring at me having just put one in her basket. Accessing high heels in size 10 left me with ads for drag shoes for about 6 months though. As bad a penguin bollards.

I suppose by the time of Prefects EBD was a very old woman yearning for the olden days

Gawd, she'd have been in her mid-70s, which doesn't seem particularly old to me these days! But I take the point that she was pining for times gone by, when servants adored their mistresses, girls considered a day's hiking quite topping enough without unneccessary extras like motor boats, and would-be-beatniks could be dealt with by a capable nanny and a good tubbing.

What is the weird half-story about the Gretchen am Spinnraden singer?

I wondered that as well. Does she re-appear? I'm not quite at the end of the book yet, so I've 'met' her in the concert and I've been wondering where she fits in. Also whether there's a backstory somewhere - School by the River, maybe? Or perhaps EBD had another older girls' story idea which never saw the light of day.

I've been inspired by the Millies' panto to come up with a couple of extra festive touches for our interminable CP. I'm sure EmilyAlice's rampaging hordes could do with a panto horse or two. And I'm thinking we could press the Mushy Pea distillery into service and churn out some Special Custard Pies for a touching baby angel comedy sequence - it would be so charmingly pretty. Anyone think of anything else?

Haha! Is that Rosalie Dene, or do I misremember?

mornington - I am massively reassured that that was also your reading of the question of Elma being 'engaged' to Stuart. Part of me was like "really? Really? Is that possible?" - but I couldn't really make any alternative make sense. That's also what the threat of expulsion is about, I think - all of the "if that had come to pass, then I couldn't have kept you here" stuff - it's too big and too final to be simply in relation to sneaking off for illicit kaffee and kuchen with him, I think. And likewise I imagine the second letter had to be along those lines (visions of Stuart the badboy booking a hotel room in Interlaken - for the afternoon)? But it's all sufficiently vague that if the reader didn't grasp that meaning for themselves then it's not actually very enlightening.

I really do like Oberland. Partly for the refreshing subject matter (and I think more books set there could've breathed new life into the series at a point when it was definitely starting to flag) but also I think its newness and size necessarily makes it a bit more like the earlier Tyrol books - small friendly staffroom which isn't overflowing with ex pupils, a single cohort of students (if from a range of backgrounds), no adult Joey!

Although yes, "Hester! You're as fat as ever!" does leave me open-mouthed. (Based on other references e.g. to poor Nancy Wilmot, I suspect this means that Hester is, like, a hefty nine stone or something.)
Also I have unresolved pedantic questions:

• Why has Grace Nalder become Phyll. And what has she done with her husband?!
• Which Matron is it? She starts off as Gertrude Rider (which makes sense) but at some point she suddenly morphs into Gwynneth Lloyd (the real Matey).
• How is Karen at St Mildred's and also at the main CS? Are there in fact two Karens?
• What is the weird half-story about the Gretchen am Spinnraden singer?! Why is she one day never going to sing again?!

Going back to the Len thing... I suppose by the time of Prefects EBD was a very old woman yearning for the olden days, but it does feel a bit sad that the triplets excitedly heading off to university with the world as their oyster wasn't happy ending enough for her, and the Len storyline needed a definite marriage plan as a sort of reassuring cherry on top. Maybe she could at least have instead had Reg asking Jack's permission to speak to Len, and Jack saying "in principle, I'd be delighted (if she was delighted), but wait until she's finished her degree" or something. Although perhaps having that conversation only resolved between the two men would be equally icky in its own way. And perhaps the Len betrothal rejoiced most contemporary correctly-aged readers at the time and I should stop wishing it better suited my personal tastes!

I'm going to have to read the uncut version of Oberland if it's on the onedrive. In the meantime, someone (I forget who - sorry) was looking for the best opening line to a Chalet School book. Can I please nominate the following:

"Well, call me Aunt Fanny on my tombstone"

(opening to Theodora. Now, why did Armada cut that?)

Can I ask a question that always intrigued me though? Why didn't the triplets become Millie's.

Welcome, Footinmouth. You not only can ask this question, you equally well may . Anyone ever had to fight the urge to say this in real life?

I'm getting towards the end of Oberland and I'm really enjoying it. It's much, much better than I'd remembered, probably because Armada absolutely ruined it with their cuts and substitutions. If you have the Armada edition, it's worth considering asking Father Christmas (too late for St N) to bring you the GGBP version. I'm tending towards it being a publishers' decision not to have her write anything more about the finishing branch, and to do with them marketing the book to an increasingly younger audience. By the time I was reading CS (starting early 70s, not long after EBD closed up her typewriter forever) they were very definitely children's books, marketed for the 8-13 age range, so books about a finishing branch would have looked quite odd, and between audiences. But I agree, I would loved to have read about the triplets as Millies, and it would have been so much better for Len, the put-upon elder sister, to have a year at least free of the responsibilities of being head girl.

I've now read the part where Elma gets her second letter, and realise that's when you thought Peggy meant 'have you slept with him' when she asks if she's engaged. I agree, that's definitely how it reads. What did you think was actually in the letter, Nell? I think it was a highly indecent proposal - asking her to join him for a night/nights of debauchery with not even a hint of marriage.

I always read nicht wahr as is it not but corrected in English to fit the subject of the verb - e.g. 'you like coffee with featherbeds of whipped cream nicht wahr' = 'you like coffee with featherbeds of whipped cream, do you not' and 'it's going to snow today, nicht wahr' = 'it's going to snow today, is it not'.

So, I'm about halfway through Oberland (not getting much reading time at the moment). I think this is the first time I've read the uncut version, and I've realised how savage the Armada cuts were. For instance, when Elma and the others are smoking and playing cards, in the Armada version they're just playing cards, and it doesn't even say that it's contract bridge, so the reader is left puzzling over why a game of cards isn't nice, especially on Sunday. And the early discussion of Elma's boyfriend proclivities is cut out, so the plot doesn't make a lot of sense. It's one of the ones that's infinitely better uncut. So far, my big outrage moment was at the start, when Peggy greets Hester with the words, 'My dear! You're fatter than ever!' Did schoolgirls really talk to one another like that? And given that we hear later about how sensitive Mollie Bettany is about her weight, having become 'stout' because of her goitre, you'd have thought Peggy would have just a little more thought for someone else.

I don't think I'd have read the question about whether Elma was engaged as meaning was she sleeping with Stuart, but now that you've mentioned it, Nell, I can see that might have been what was intended.

I wonder whether EBD intended to write more novels set in the finishing branch, but got told not to by her publishers. She'd written Jean of Storms for an older audience, and maybe wanted to have some books for her readers to graduate to, as the audience for girls' novels was getting younger by the 1950s. I'm enjoying it, and I think it's a pity there aren't more.

I think though she thought of Len and Reg being very romantic whereas in Oberland it was a fling and so disapproved of.

However I do agree that it was a finishing the series off. Although I think seeing Len excited about going off to Oxford could have done.

Going back to the Len/Reg thing, I think yes it's true that the gossip etc forces Len to move quickly to show her hand, as it were - but EBD contrives all that to have things tied up before she herself runs out of time to finish the series, right? It's odd - the only other girl I can think of who is engaged even before she leaves school is Marie, a generation earlier (and not English). EBD's take on boyfriends is a bit peculiar - Oberland is still fresh in my mind, and she's v approving in that of Peggy Bettany's total innocence and lack of interest (contrasted with precocious Elma, who turns out to be in deeper than she can handle).
Later on, in/after Problem, it's agreed that Joan's interest in boys isn't quite naice, but it's sort of understandable because the working classes grow up younger. Whereas Jo and Jack deliberately keep their family 'young'. It's very bizarre then that their responsible eldest commits herself to a man before she leaves school, and I don't think EBD would have written such a thing if she'd thought she had time enough to see the triplets through college.

As a related asides - were those sort of v unromantic proposals popular generally in real life / fiction? Thinking of Neil Sheppard and Reg in particular - did that casual "so we're engaged then?" thing have a sort of caddish charm?

I always wondered how the forms in the school worked. They seemed to move up a form if they were doing well. How on earth did the teachers teach them when pupils were coming and going each term? Especially something like maths, surely some pupils would miss large chunks because they were only in a particular form for a term or two.

hels yes dh might well get their ages wrong (didn't Princess Di famously get one of the Prince's ages wrong at some point-I think I remember a Giles cartoon on it) but he wouldn't say "oh no she can't possibly be 14yo". He'd be more likely to be the opposite-believe whatever he was told that way.

Then you have that they haven't visited in about 5 years. Poor Cousin Maud (or am I confusing my cousins) she probably thought it would be 6 months max before they came back.

Well the chateau does have more rooms than beloved Plas Gwynn but the stairs are horribly steep and it's a bit of a white elephant really! Cheeky cow. :)

My dh is similar in being a huge lump... sometimes convert but generally irritation and we have only 4 children so definatly not a real family.

I need to be very busy soon and have my hands full

Rue sounds interesting me too.

I love Sybil Russell and think they are all mean about her.

Taking a small diversion back to the Discworld, I love the idea of retrophrenology - the ability to alter your personality by dint of having a retrophrenologist whack you over the head with a hammer, thus changing the shape of your skull :o

If my DH is anything to go off not knowing Carola's age is not impossible...DH lives with our DD and still can not recall her age. Maybe it's a good job I don't have a "real family"!!

Joey in The Oberland is just so obviously jealous it's ridiculous. I think Simone doesn't say anything because it's so obvious rather than not minding.

Always that's interesting yes you would think jack at least would interfere and tell Reg to leave well alone until she's much older.

Totally agree with the opinion on carola surely she wrote to her parents and they back? Oh well.

Just re read joey goes The Oberland and had to laugh at how joey pisses on simones parade by dissing her inherited chateau.