Dodgy nanny employment practices

I just took a nanny on to do 6 hours a week for 6 months.

I don't know if this falls under the threshold or not. But when I asked if she wanted me to pay tax etc (which I was very prepared to do) - she said no - because apparently it would raise the costs to her 4 day a week nanny job and be too complicated.

this is the problem that anyone can decide they want to look after children and call theirselves a nanny yet be from another country/cant speak english/get exploited by familys

this is why i think all nannyies should be qualifed/be on a register but thats another thread

Can someone tell me what I should do? I pay an 'after school nanny' £90 a week to work a maximum of 10 hours a week (usually 8) to pick up my child from school 3 or sometimes 4 days a week and look after him for a couple of hours until I get home from work. I checked with a tax and payroll service before she started work with us, and they said that I do not meet the threshold for having to register as an employer and pay NI, tax. At the advice of the payroll service, I asked her to fill out a P46 giving her NIN and confirming that this was her only employment.

Since she started with us, she has also found another job, working in a cafe, which has fluctuating shifts. She has given her NIN to this employer also, so no-one is trying to pay cash under the table.

Does the fact that her earnings now are above the tax/NI level in most weeks affect our arrangement? Do I have to do anything with respect to the IR/HMRC? Or does her personal earnings allowance just continue to sit with her first employer - me - and the NI/tax issue just gets picked up by her second employer, the cafe?

Advice gratefully received! I don't want to do anything illegal or disadvantage our lovely childcarer in any way - but neither do I want to increase my costs if I don't have to do so.

Here is an illegal workers cheklist

Romanians dont need Visa anymore... Well I am legal employee and I know Romanians like any other nationals have the right to change from self-employed to employee.I registered as employee straight away and got my blue card after being au pair.
Once a nanny has a Blue card,National insurance number and can show you that her status is employee she is a legal employee, do not judge without having prove!

In the article you posted about the Olmpic site though it doesn't say that the Romanian workers were blue card holders, but were registered as self employed. A self-employed person from Romania or Bulgaria holds a yellow card.

If they were blue card holders then as NannyNorthLondon says they can work as an employee without restriction. I assume that the immigration team who were investigating found out that the building contractors were providing employment for these people as if the were employees, but avoiding their responsibilities by takng them on as self-employed. Since they were working in a fashion that was just for the one contractor then they were working illegally.

Also ask if they have a blue card,,if they dont have it they are trying to work ilegal, as you cannot work as a nanny without the blue card!
Most of the nannies have been in Uk for a while so they should have the Blue card...
Strix you are right, there is god and bad like everywhere..

This is a very cynical thread. I know lots of nanny employers and nannies who are paid legally and treated well.

I also have run across lots of "nannies" who expect to make outrageous sums of money without any qualifications or experience in the field.

butadream you said..

• it doesn't matter really what the nanny does, the responsibility and potential fines are with the employer anyway both for tax and immigration purposes.

This is not true The nanny has also committed a criminal offence.
If a Romanian or Bulgarian was found to be working illegally because they did not have the right to work in the UK or if they are working in a different capacity to what they are allowed then they have to pay a fine of £1000. If they don't pay the fine and it goes to court they can then be fined up to £5000 and face 3 months in prison.

butadream I am a Romanian nanny and I am employee.Romanians and Bulgarians dont need a Visa to enter Uk since January 2007.
To be a legal worker in Uk they need to apply for a work permit(I know UKBA says that the employer should apply but in most cases is the employee who aplies for it).
There are two types of work permits:
1.Purple card- work permit that only Au pairs get
2.Yellow card- work permit that Students,Nurses,Domestic Staff(Cleaners),Builders,Doctors,Teachers get
This types off work permits only allow you to work in the same field you have registered to work and only for one employee.
Afer 1 year of emplyment in the Uk we can apply for Blue Card(Registration certificate) wich can give you the right to work with no restriction or can give the right to work just in one field(ex:construction) but for as many employers as you like.
There is another way to obtain the Blue card and that is applying as a dependant if you have husband or family who are student or self-employed and you will be registered as self-employed automaticlly thats why I said in my previous thread that they are "forced by circumstances".
I advice any off you that you ask them how they came in Uk, what they did before chosing to be a nanny.Some off them are qualified teachers and probably came and registered after their husband or they came to study and have been required by Uk law to register as self-employed.
And some off them have just been exploited by previous employers but is not just their fault.Life is taugh for us, the foreigns and we are the ones that have to sacrifice most off the time to get and keep a job!
A few months ago when I was searching for a nanny position I was interviewed by rich families who can deffinetly afford to pay tax and NI.Also the "funny"thing is that one of them was a lawyer... but all off them wanted me to register as self-employed and "take care of my tax".

Butadream if you really like a CV and you interview the nanny over the phone and after that in person dont judge her just because she is self-employed.As far as I know they can change the status and become an employee so that shouldnt be a problem at all.

I would employ a nanny who has done a course and First Aid and either registered with Ofsted or can registered with Ofsted. It shows that they are considering nannying as a career and serious about it. Unlike some people who are just working for the sake of their visa status.

I think on their passport they get "residents permit visa" with an expiry date. And with a clause that they cant claim benefit or something like that. As I said, they have to pay their tax. for them to be able to extent their visa. As I said before they have different aggrement with Europe.

I thought Bulgarians are in EU why would they need a visa?

I do think this might be less of an issue if people would stop agreeing net pay arrangements, or even talking about pay in net terms.

I don't see why a nanny would be happy to work without getting her tax/NI paid, nor why an employer would risk not making proper deductions, but I also don't see why paying net is still the norm when deductions are required. To me it smacks of the days when domestic staff lived below stairs and one paid them with one's pocket change rather than a modern employment relationship.

I think part of the problem is that in this country, childcare costs are not tax deductible. In any business situation where you have an employee, you can offset the gross cost of employment against the business profits. But you can't with childcare. If I am self-employed and use my car for work, have an office, a phone etc all these things can be offset against my earnings - but not the cost of someone to care for my child so I CAN work!!

It is quite mad and has always infuriated me.

And I have observed that the very rich are often the absolute tightest around, so this sort of behaviour doesn't surprise me. And it is so commonplace that no-one really considers it wrong anymore, everyone knows someone doing it.

Butadream, As far as i know Turkish citizens doesnt need or dont have that Blue Card registration system.

I think you guys talking about 2 different issues here.

Nannies who are self employed do! pay their tax, ni contributions etc. regardless their country of origin. Turkish or Bulgarian or wherever they are from. If they dont they wont be able to renew their visa!
Home office give them visa to work as self employed. And when they apply for visa they have to tell them(HO) what they will be doing and also have to show them their business plan and supporting documents(this could be courses, first aid etc.) So not everyone can get a visa just like that. And after a year they have to show how much tax they paid and all the other stuff to HO.

Turkey has an agreement with Europe and as long as they contribute to the country they live in and work, they can stay legally. And for them to do so they have to show IR all their earnings! Otherwise, HO wont renew their visa.

And regarding employers who are taking advantage of nannies and other domestic stuff. There will be always this kind of employers anyway. And it has nothing to do with their wealth! I know very wealthy employers who doesn't pay tax for their stuff. And those stuff cant complain to IR as they know they will loose their job. And getting another job might be difficult for them. And I don't think IR can do anything unless! someone report the employer.

I think another problem is a lot of employers do not see their nanny as a human being but a commodity like their children, or worse an accessory.
The fact the nanny may have a life, commitments etc is of no interest to them so paying their tax and national insurance is hardly top of their priority list.
I've had that comment about live in nannies many times and my response is simple. If they resent the salary that much then they can get rid of me and do the work themselves (I've always worked for SAHM's)
That usually stops them in their tracks when they realise (shock shock, horror horror,) they might have to spend an hour alone with the little Darlings.
So glad I'm out of there for the time being.
There are so many double standards and substandard foundations.

Another nanny employer here (formerly) who has been shocked by under-the -table arrangements I've heard nannies talk about. My DH works in finance, and I'm surprised to hear about bankers/lawyers because DH would lose his job and find it impossible to get another if he were fined by the inland revenue for not paying tax for an employee or whatever. We know it would only take falling out with the employee and them reporting it, or them falling out with their boyfriend and him reporting it, or whatever, to land in a lot of trouble. For the sake of a few hundred a month how can such employers live with themselves?

While we were recruiting though, we found a lot of nannies who only wanted to be "self employed". We had to explain time and time again that WE would be in trouble if we agreed to this, not them.

I wish the IR would crack down on this. It exploits the vulnerable.