Reconciling nannies' needs and employers' needs

Giving feedback I expect is a tricky area for all employers. When things go wrong, then feedback is forthcoming. When things go right, there probably isn't a lot of feedback. Is that the case in most jobs, not just nannying?

Agree on the professional points. I manage my nanny on a professional basis; as novice says giving bonus for above and beyond etc. I am also friendly; as I would be at work! I give feedback as and when small things come up and don't make a deal out of it. Again same as in an office situation. Biggest challenge for me was I work in a high initiative environment and realised I need to give more direction at home. Once I had got this; works great.

Top london nannies are v well paid - £35K+ for a 55 hour week. I employ one and know many; the bit that I am always amused by is how many believe they will earn more in an office job. They may eventually but after a number of years and I know v few £50K jobs where you genuinely clock off, expect to get overtime etc.

I've found that some of the more difficult relationships I've had with employers is when they've been a bit insecure about employing a nanny. They want you to be "part of the family" and a friend rather than an employee, I think because they'd like to imagine you look after their children for love rather than money. I wonder of this is guilt about paying a stranger to come in and do their job?

Being "part of the family" also seems to be good cover for asking lots of favours, especially for live in nannies - will you watch the children for an hour on a saturday morning while I nip to the shops? Or "help out" at a weekend birthday party.

I find this type of employers won't give you any useful feedback either, which is very frustrating. You're left to guess whether you're doing things the way they like.

I've also worked for a MB who had nannies herself as a child, and their was none of this. Although she was approachable, kind and friendly, she was also totally upfront about what she wanted, had no problem asking for things to be done, was home on time, paid on time - professional basically. Much, much easier.

electrelane - I think nannying is pretty well paid, especially compared to most office jobs, though the standard week is longer (50 hours rather than 40). As nannynick says, the thing that may put graduates off is the lack of career progression.

Most full time nannies I know in Bristol are on something between £20k and £26k gross a year for live out. In London it varies from around £20k gross for full time live in to £34k gross for full time live out.

Average London wages are £10 per hour net so with a 50 hr working week runs pretty close to 30K gross.
I paid £24 000 pa gross for our last nanny and this is a very average suburb where not many people can afford nannies (unsurprisingly...)
I have found this thread very helpful(thank you all!) in making me think about what wants/needs are for the next nanny (my mum is helping out atm but don't want to wear her out bless her)
I am rubbish at giving orders and veer too much on the side of lax as an employer -which can be fine if you only pick the right nanny...
(Lax as in not really giving specific instructions not getting home late from work or not paying proper wages and tax I hasten to add)

I have never met or heard of a nanny earning anywhere near £30,000. I'm sure a few of them exist, but they're in no way representative of most professional childcarers - the vast majority of families just don't have that sort of money to spend on childcare, and many of the few who do... well, why would they pay £30k when they could easily find excellent full-time care for £15k?

I would infinitely prefer nannying to an office job. However, I'd also prefer a job that pays a living wage over one that doesn't...

A full-time nanny could be on £20-£30k, even more if in London, so I would say it can compare with a graduate starting salary. It won't increase greatly though. Nursery staff however are low paid, in my area £13,000 a year is typical.

I wonder if some people with higher level qualifications don't want to work a tiring, challenging, hour+ commute each way, intense office politics, high stress, working in an air-conditioned glass box type of full-time job - thus consider nannying. Some of us don't like offices, we are more outdoor people but not outdoor loving enough to be a full-time gardener.

foxinsocks - the nanny you describe sounds great. Did they have some academic though, or did they leave school with nothing?

While I totally understand that some parents want educated and intelligent nannies, I think there can be a big problem here in terms of pay. Professional childcare is generally shockingly underpaid. Nannying is at the higher end in my experience - much better than working in a private nursery, for example - but it's still significantly lower than the average graduate salary (probably around £19,500 in 2008 though some reports suggest it's nearer £25,000). I'm currently studying for my BA which is going to leave me in approximately £20,000 of debt. Much as I love childcare, it seems a bit of a waste of all this time and extremely expensive education if I end up back in a nursery earning £12,000 a year. We see so many young, un(der)qualified girls going into childcare not just because childcare is presented as an easy job anyone with no GCSEs can do (though it is, and that's a problem), but also because most people with higher level qualifications don't want to work a tiring, challenging, emotionally demanding full-time job for a salary that barely skims above minimum wage.

Why is it snobby? It just reflects what's important to a particular employer. No-one is saying academic people automatically make good nannies, or that those without academic qualifications aren't good nannies, it's merely that some people prefer to have an educated AND enthusiastic person looking after their children. I'm sure your nanny would have been the same person she was, fox, if she'd had a degree in Spanish or Physics too.

I sometimes feel there's a certain kind of inverse snobbery (as an educated nanny) that academic people are too overqualified to look after children. I often get asked why I want to do it when I have a degree as if there's some perception that people with degrees should be doing 'better' things.

I think it does sound snobby tbh

Our best nanny by miles was one who was a career nanny. She didn't have the greatest academic qualifications but she loved looking after children, loved taking them out on trips and made sure they did their work. My children adored her and she was brilliant at setting boundaries with them, sorting out bad behaviour, problems at school etc.

I think if you are limiting your nanny choice by those with academic qualifications you are missing a trick.

"I find that whilst I'm polite, respectful, meet all my employers demands as well as I possibly can I find being treated like a human being is something that rarely happens."

Excellent point, tavvy. Clearly respect goes both ways and nannies are just as deserving of this as employers are, even though they are in the position of being the employee. This thread is supposed to be about both nannies' and employers' needs and one basic need a nanny has is to be treated as a human and not as a super-machine. Nannies need employers to come home on time, because at the end of the day it is actually a job and we do have a life outside work, or at the very least call as soon as they know they're going to be late. They need a contract, they need to be paid on time, they need to have reasonable holidays and they need employers to recognise that they get sick sometimes and whilst they will 90% of the time struggle into work they probably won't be at their best that day. Nannies can have 'off' days just like everyone else which is something else that isn't recognised.

I find that flexibility has to go both ways but, whilst some employers do recognised that and act on that philosophy, some say that but expect the flexibility to be all one way and yet others don't even pay lip service to the notion of flexibility and expect it all to go their way.

Another interesting point which I don't think has been raised yet is that nannies don't have colleagues in the traditional sense of the word and they don't have access to training or progression within one job. Nannies, like everyone, need human interaction and I'm certainly of the opinion that they should be updating and extending their skills and knowledge. I can't think of any job where you could conceivably go 20 years without needing to go on a course to learn soemthing new. Nannies don't even have to have a 1st Aid certificate although most employers require it.

I have only had the one nanny so dont have a great deal of experience. I really struggled at first, trying to work out how to "treat" her. I think this was in part due to me being new mum, but also being new at the nanny relationship. I employ other people (in my work life) and I think I have found a position that I am comfortable with in that I treat her in the same way as my other employees so we have a professional relationship which means I make sure that she feels treated fairly and is well paid. If she does something that I am not happy with, I say so, in the same way that I do at work, rather than let it fester.

Interestingly, I think she has had to adjust her mindset to having a professional relationship with the parents of her charge as while she has always been treated as one of the family by previous employers, a couple did take advantage of her good nature. I gave her a bonus at xmas because she does go above and beyond her job description, and so I told her that I wanted to recognise this - I would also do this with another employee in my work life. Obviously there is a non-professional bit, which is that she clearly adores DD.... which is great!

Couple of thoughts; given angles of discussion. I have had 2 nannies (no great statistical sample) - although just spent my mat leave surrounded by many in order to maintain play dates etc. and know a fair few more.

1st one - from the place we do not name. She was superb; prob best "nanny" in terms of organisation, child activities, quality of care etc. I will ever see. She managed me (believe me this is no mean feat!!), was super proactive etc. She was also had good a levels etc. and was intelligent, not really one of the nanny pack.

2nd one - no childcare qualifications, 2 degrees; also intelligent (see what I value?!), and is all round excellent; although does need some guidance on things like weaning etc. Which I have no problem with but is prob a gap in "training"; although both had >10 years exp.

So, what do I conclude; I also want my kids to be surrounded by intelligent folk who can make interesting conversation and am less fussed about their ability to change nappies and wean a child as I believe that is really easily picked up by anyone with some good common sense.

I guess I think you just need to trust your instincts, know what you value and be prepared to turn your guidance on or off as the situation calls for

Does all this then mean, just out of interest, that as a nanny is hired at the employers convenience and the employers needs come first rightly so, that the employer can treat their nanny as badly as they like?

I find that whilst I'm polite, respectful, meet all my employers demands as well as I possibly can I find being treated like a human being is something that rarely happens.

Agree that the whole wanting to be a member of the family thing with nannies is weird.

That's not being an educational snob IMO. It just reflects that education is important to you and you want someone intellectual and rounded looking after your children. Of course not all graduates are brilliant academically but there's a much higher likelihood that they will be at least vaguely academic.

I think people are also very right to say that they're also likely to have had other jobs and chosen nannying as a vacation rather than something they had to do because they didn't have any other career option. Nannies who've been line nanaged before understand more about professionalism in general. I haven't got a DCE or NNEB but are professional skills for nannies covered? Obviously that's something the Place We Do Not Name have been falling down on but is it something that's just missing, even in a 1 hour class for 'nannying is one career option, here is what you need to know'?

Employers: are trained nannies better at managing the relationship than untrained ones or is there no difference? And does having had a different job help? Is it something which comes with experience or are some nannies never going to get it and the habits become entrenched?

I agree with Nick's point about education. I will totally put my hand up to being an educational snob when it comes to nannies: first nanny was a Cambridge graduate and although she had limited childcare experience she was excellent, partly because of the vocation thing. That's obviously not likely to be repeated but I'm generally looking for minimum decent A levels, a higher level qualification or, ideally a degree which is not in childcare.

This sort of career pattern often means someone has a CV with experience outside childcare: they understand a line management relationship, which is probably the closest thing to an appropriate and commonly understood model for a nannying relationship.

Thanks Summersoon - enjoyed reading that

on how to

I have had only one glass of wine. Honest.

I don't know

we have certainly got better at interviewing/employing nannies as the children get older

we are lucky, I think, that we have not had an issue with any nanny relationship that we have had but we are very laid back and have fully encouraged the children to love and respect the nannies that we have had

I think nannying children gets harder as the children get older. Certainly looking after that pre teen age cannot be easy, it must be emotionally demanding, more so than babies/toddlers where it is more incessant (if that makes sense) although I recognise you can do more with them when they are bigger.

If I look back over all our nannies, if I was being super critical, I could pick out something each one didn't do well but it was always only ever one thing really and the most important thing was that they loved and looked after the children well and cared for them. In truth, that's all I have ever wanted from a nanny - if they can cook well and organise then that is a bonus.

And the nanny that worked out the best for us was totally unlike me or dh. I think it was a refreshing change for the children and a change they enjoyed!

Let's try that one again. It would help if I read the instructions on to post a link first

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e231b516-0a1c-11df-8b23-00144feabdc0.html

Yes, there is - go to FT.com, the select "Arts and Leisure" in the column on the LH side, then "Columnists", then "Mrs Moneypenny" and the article is called "The mixed blessing of the aupair who can cook". Click on the headline. Or maybe the link below will work!

www.ft.com/cms/s/2/e231b516-0a1c-11df-8b23-00144feabdc0.html

I can see MrsW's theory - for me the core difficulty is the immediacy, and thus the limited perspective, of the relationship: in just about any other working relationship you see how person A interacts with person B, and C, and D, all the way to person ZZ, and you get a rounded sense of what they're like and where they're reasonable and where they have foibles and the corners get rubbed off a bit in all that mutual interaction.

In the closeness of a nanny/employer situation, telling the difference between frictions of personality and Big Principle Problems is really hard - but may be easier for someone who grew up with nannies, as then there is an element of perspective.

I'm quite a seasoned nanny-employer now: ds is nearly 11, dd is 9, and we have had a range from SuperNanny to AussieTreasure to RunningAwayFromReality to (currently) PersonWithOwnFreelanceCareerWhoIsGoodWithChildrenAndNeedsASteadyIncomeToo. And each one who comes along we are better at choosing, and better at settling in with, and better about sorting boundaries, and better at making the most of what they can offer, and eventually about happily waving them off on their next adventure as they leave us.

Summersoon - is there an online version of That?