A mother's query about childminder holiday entitlement

Dooze dont be too hard on your cm if she is new she may not realise (from a new cm)

Just to answer this as well - CMs are not employees so legally are not entitled to any holiday pay.

However, what you agree with them contractually will depend on bargaining power between you. A CM with a waiting list can call the shots - one without a lot of children may be more flexible.

I pay my CM if I do not use her because I am on hols or my son is ill. I do not pay her for her own holidays - 4 weeks this year, normally 3 and a bit. There is a grey area as far as bank holidays which she says she is working - last year I paid for the two May bank holidays (and only knew afterwards when I queried my May invoice that she was "working" - I guess there are people who have to work BHs like nurses who will need care on bank holidays for their kids so maybe she was) - but not for any others like Easter.

What I don't know is whether she gets paid twice if for example we are away (she looks after my son on Mondays and Fridays in the school hols) and she gets another child in on one of those days. I've never had a refund and I've always paid the extra if I've had extra days so I bet she does get paid twice! I have been able to swap quite often though which has saved me money.

Hi Cat64 your'e quite right there is no right or wrong way, what works for some doesn't for others, The system I use (although sounds a bit wierd to some CM) does actually work well for me, my annual planner is given out once a year so plenty of notice what I find is that our parents book their hols at the same time as ours that being the case the children only have a week to 10dys off over the year (most employed people only have 4wks hol entitlement per anum anyway so only 2wks left after mine are taken off) and sometimes parents split the remaining time with dc or dh/p so I tend to find that parents are not taking advantage of my Terms in fact it can work to my advantage if I need time off for a course / funeral (which has happened recently) or some such they are very understanding, I also charge over a 52wk period so I don't have gaps in my regular income this helps parents budget too and means they don't get extra large bills come holiday club time, I know each week whats coming in and it's the same regardless of wether I'm working or not. I also provide all meals/snacks and pay the full cost of outings (I do ask parents to do a pack lunch for these though) I'm also not the cheapest (some near me charge as little as 1.80 per hour, which I do think is undervaluing what we do, but thats another issue). Please don't judge me too harshly, I use a system that works well for me, but may not be suitable for others, to me being self employed and employed are very distinctly defined, I suppose thats due to my background.

I agree with your question leeloo1. By me not charging for MY holidays but parents still paying when they are away, I can still budget for them as they are within my control.

My parents can budget too as they know my holidays many months in advance and often they co-ordinate their holiday with mine... killing two birds with one stone: (1) ensuring they don't need to find alternate childcare when I am on holiday, and (2) ensuring they aren't paying fees whilst they are on holiday.

How many nurseries keep a vacancy for a child on hliday? None I know of.

One of my mindees has had 6 weeks holiday this year thus far, imagine they werent paying me...? Absolutely impossible for me to work with such uncertainty of my next salary.

Yes, that is very generous. I don;t know any childminder or nursery that waives charges for mindeees holidays regardless of the amount of notice given.

I know some do have term time only agreements.

Hi atworknotworking,

I feel that your t&cs are overly generous to the parents... How do you budget/pay the bills if your parents can just not pay you for any holidays that they choose to take? Just curious as it looks like most childminders have a hard time financially anyway...

I pay half for days that I would normally use my CM but that I choose not to send my child (ie Easter and half term holidays). I do not pay her for Bank holidays and she takes 3 weeks off over the summer and 2 weeks off at Christmas which are unpaid.
It is all very clear in the contract we have signed, (based on an NCMA sheet).
HTH.

Hi all I've been looking at this forum for a while, but this is my first message. I'm a CM (for about 4yrs now), the one thing I'm sure of is that no 2 CM's work the same, we do get passed guidelines from places like NCMA, and when we decide our Terms & Conditions, pay rates etc we look at the competition (as any business does) Personally I have been self employed in one capacity or another for the last 12yrs or so, and I have yet to have had a contract that gives me paid leave, sick pay, maternity etc as a self employed person and I might add that I wouldn't expect to, with this in mind when I started minding I was very clear about under what terms I would work these are pretty simple.

I don't work bank hols and I don't expect to be paid for them either.

I have two weeks off a year and I don't expect parents to pay for that either. (after all they need alternative care which will generally cost them something).

If the mindees are off I do not charge if they give me at least two weeks notice (if it's less than 2wks then I do).

If a child is sick I give 3 free sick days a year, over that it's full fee (obviously if the child is going to be off due to a long term illness / problem, then I would consult with the parent, probably end contract and re-start when/if req'd)

Basically if I'm available for work I expect to be paid, if I'm not I don't.

This has worked well for me personally, but as I said prev I have been self emp a long time and being used to this I don't expect any diferent. The parents are happy with this arrangement - they feel it's fair.

I might add though for a self employed person I have never been so heavily regulated, had to comply with so much legislation, attended so much training or done so much paperwork! At times it does feel like you are employed. It is a hard job, but can also be very rewarding, just as many other jobs are. At the end of the day it comes down to what you agreed initially and the contract you signed, it is good practice though to do a contract review (mine are 6mths after the first one, which I think is about average) so your minder may be reviewing it soon anyway it may be a good opportunity for you to come to a mutual agreement. Most minders are very good at taking on board parents comments and work in partnership with parents well.

I think it's a fair point that this childminder is new and someone probaly told her she was entitled to them. But, really, she is oobligated to get it right before she takes on her first client.

Anyway, it has been well established on here by many that she is not legally entitled to them, but is due payment if it is in her contract.

So Dooze... are you going to tell us? Is it in the contract. Enquiring minds want to know.

Personally, I was happy to pay holidays for my childminder. I'd much rather a happy, relaxed and refreshed childminder than one who can't afford time-off.

The law is very clear. You need to be in an employment relationship to be entitled to holidays. Childminders are always very quick to point out that they are not employees, and they are not. So they are not entitled to holiday under the legislation.

She should be sure about what she can and can't charge for before she starts charging.
But anyway, surely she can charge for what she likes? She just shouldn't give the impression that something is statutory when it is not.

I think it's worth remembering that this particular childminder is very new to the job. According to the OP, this is her first contract. I don't think she's trying it on. I do think she's probably unsure about what she can and can't charge for, especially if she's come fresh from a course where the trainer has encouraged her to charge for holidays.

I'm not having a bad day. In fact I have a relatively new job which I positively love compared to the one I left in January. I looked forward to coming to work today.

It's the whole "entitled to" thing that gets me riled up. If it is in the contract and parent signs it then yes of course you should be paid for it (as I said on my first post on this thread). But, if you tell an unsuspecting parent that it is an entitlement then you are playing dirty. It is not an entitlement.

And, underpaidandoverworked, I work as hard as anyone I know. Last week I left for work at 5:15 on Tuesday morning and got home at 19:00 on Thursday. I also worked about 10 hours on Monday. I did get the bank hols off, but then I am an employee.

what is this paperwork that is the same for teachers?

I can see why cms would encourage full holiday pay but it doesn;t mean they are entitled to it

I've never paid a childminder for holidays. It would be a deal-breaker for us, we simply couldn't afford to pay any more.

So we know which hymn sheet we are all singing from Dooze is this holiday pay in your contract or not?

This is a two way thing, childminders must make their fees clear in their contracts in advance and parents should read the small print before signing.

No-one is saying CMs are entitled to paid holidays (even if it would be a good idea), just that whatever is agreed in the contract should stand.

'Entitled to' makes it sound like a statutory requirement. Which it isn't.

Of course she's perfectly at liberty to write whatever she likes into the contract. I would (and did, when deciding whather to use a CM or afterschool club) average out the cost over the year, rather than fret about the rights and wrongs of paid leave.

Dooze, what a can or worms you have opened There is no legal entitlement as the others have said, however if you have signed a contract where you have agreed to an entitlement then that is what you pay. I personally do not charge for when I am not available and only require half payment during parents holidays.

hth

No-one is saying that childminders are not professionals who work long hours.

What we are saying that choosing to be self-employed brings both benefits and drawbacks.

You can not have the benefits of being self-employed but at the same time claim the entitlements of the employed.

Also, we are giving advice to a parent who has asked for it - maybe you should open a new thread if you want to have a pop at us

Childminders are 'entitled' to whatever they agree with their parents and subsequently write into their contracts .

Athene, am assuming you are having a bad day. Maybe you should try spending a day with a hardworking cm just to appreciate what we actually do. We aren't 'glorified babysitters' doing this for pocket money - we are professionals the same as anyone else who works with children.

Jenni - agree with you