A mother's query about childminder holiday entitlement

girls it's an old thread, no need to get all het up all over again, yes?

ok pudding here is my answer: MY CAPS

If any of these statements applies, your worker is likely to be self-employed.

• They can hire someone else to do the work you?ve given them, or take on helpers at their own expense. NO TO 1ST POINT YES TO 2ND
• They can decide where to provide their services, as well as when and how to do the work you?ve given them. YES TO FIRST POINT
• You pay them an agreed fixed price - it doesn't depend on how long the job takes to finish.
• They can make a loss or a profit. YES INDEEDY

Even if none of the statements in the previous list applies, your worker is still likely to be self-employed if most of the following apply to them.

• They use their own money to buy business assets, pay for running costs, etc. YEP
• They?re responsible for putting right any unsatisfactory work, at their own expense and in their own time. YEP (THINKING OF INSPECTION HERE)
• They provide the main tools and equipment needed to do their work. AGAIN YES

Therefore CM is self employed.

HTH

In my first year of CMing I took 1 days holiday (couldn't afford to close) and was in a right state but then I decided I HAD to take time out if working to full numbers but over time managed to get parents to agree to paying set amount each month so we could all budget better (but I knew it was MY responsibility to put aside holiday money, was just easier this way). I used to charge for bank hols as was open as usual but now I don't charge as not willing to work them. So when I work out monthly fees, I deduct 4 weeks hols plus all the bank hols and divide by 12, easy

I agree we work very hard, do all our crappy paperwork, training etc. in our own time BUT we are still SE so I agree are not 'entitled' to pay. Yes, we are encouraged to and the training courses bang on about this now but that's not meaning we're 'entitled'! But agree, cut the OPs CM some slack. Starting out is overwhelming these days with everything we have to do to set up so I wouldn't say she's necessarily pulling a fast one!

None of what you have written is contradicted by AN's post though cheryl. I don;t think anybody on here has questioned the work done by childminders. Only whether they are "entitled" - in law rather than morally - to to be paid for their holidays, as opposed to simply stating to parents that those are the terms and conditions prior to contracts being signed.

From reading threads on holiday pay for CM's the comments back are always relating to the CM employment status being self employed and Cm's not being entitled to holiday pay which is why i looked into the hmrc and direct gov site to find out what it all meant being Self employed.
You really have to take your time and read the sections on these websites relating to being self employed, defining your self as a worker although you are self employed and what you receive in terms of holiday pay , maternity pay and other benefits.

Direct gov web page - Are you a worker employee or self employed- under self employment it tells you this "It is possible, in some limited cases, to be self-employed for tax purposes but classified as a 'worker' or an 'employee' for employment rights purposes".
Direct gov page Holiday entitlements says

"All workers have a right to at least 5.6 weeks? paid annual leave, but you could receive more than that"

hmrc web page employments status says "Indications that a worker is self-employed

If any of these statements applies, your worker is likely to be self-employed.

• They can hire someone else to do the work you?ve given them, or take on helpers at their own expense.
• They can decide where to provide their services, as well as when and how to do the work you?ve given them.
• You pay them an agreed fixed price - it doesn't depend on how long the job takes to finish.
• They can make a loss or a profit.

Even if none of the statements in the previous list applies, your worker is still likely to be self-employed if most of the following apply to them.

• They use their own money to buy business assets, pay for running costs, etc.
• They?re responsible for putting right any unsatisfactory work, at their own expense and in their own time.
• They provide the main tools and equipment needed to do their work.

yikes cheryl

calm down dear

AtheneNoctua That is nothing to do with the parents. If you want to be paid for those efforst you should take that up with the bozos who passed the legislation requireing all this malarchy.

It does irritate me when childminders (or any other profession) go around telling unsuspecting new parents that they are "entitled" to this and "entitled" to that... ESPECIALLY when it is not true. Whatever the NCMA requires or suggests you do is between you and them. It does not obligate that parent.

You are a small business and not en employee. If you want to be an employee, you might consider taking up nannying.

I realise my message here is fairly harshly stated, but I believe this tone is appropriate when people are preaching the entitlement culture (wrongly) to unsuspecting parents.

well i am a childminder and i get half pay for my holidays but calculate for the year so the parents pay the same all year round so i have to same wage every month if i didnt get paid for holiday i would never be able to afford to take them so therefore i would never take a holiday and i dont think an over wrked, tired , stresses childminder is any good to the children in her care and im sure no parent would want there childminder to be like that after all you would get an employed parent wrking all year round and not taking the 5weeks yearly entitlement

phrase not ohrase

pudding can you cut and paste the exact ohrase you are referring to - I cannot find it

Thank you

CM are not workers. They are business owners. The parents are customers/clients and not employers.

Yes and it reads on to give you an indicator that a self employed person can be defined as a worker.

??? pudding that is relating to whether a person is self employed or an employee

CMs are self employed, they take on the risks

And bleurgh at the CM who resurrected this thread, what a vile and uneccessary post. amandajcarrbrown, for example, is a twat.

[folds arms]

www.hmrc.gov.uk/paye/employees/start-leave/stauts.htm

I havent used a CM for a few years now but 3 of my 4 children have been in their care over the last 18 years. Things have changed a lot since my first DC went to a CM when she was 6mth old. There seems to be an awful lot more paperwork, required training, activities etc etc. I wouldnt do it. For that amount of effort I would want much better pay and conditions.

I have always been on a fairly low wage and since DS1 was born, worked part time. But I never had a problem with paying holidays. It seemed perfectly reasonable to me because I got paid holidays.

I dont think I ever got charged if a CM was sick but did if child was sick. This also seemed more than fair (I always got sick pay myself).

There was no way I couldve afforded to pay private nursery fees. Thank God for CM.

Jeez Amanda, you sound like a fun happy person with whom I'd like to leave my children.

Wow - can't believe this can of worms has been re-opened .

FWIW, I never charged for my own annual holidays but if a mindees 'contracted' day fell on a bank holiday then yes, I would charge full fee. It was all in the contract and I never had a problem with parents over it - they were still getting paid and still getting the 'childcare element' of the tax credit anyway if they'd claimed it.

Look fwd to catching up with this thread again

Thats what I thought too Dicey, my understanding is that if you are s/emp but your contractor stipulates working days / times / uniform / when you have time off etc then you are under the Contract OF services. Wheras CM's dictate when they are available for work, when they are off, what they wear etc. Definately a grey area.

I kind of know what Mr Anchovy is referring to here. It's a grey area but it all depends on whether you are offering a Contract FOR Services or a Contract OF Services. My undersatnding is that OF serices means that you are contracted by someone for your services and are entitled to employee benefits eg holiday. However the person that contracts you dicates your working week, what you will do, the breaks you will take etc. Contract FOR Services is for Self Employed people who govern their own day and workload. The HRMC website treats Childminders as someone who offers a Contract FOR Services.

pudding can you explain what you mean by defining "worker", is that a HMRC definition? could you link the HMRC info please.

I'm sorry Mr Anchovy but I do come under the definition of a worker in my role as a Childminder. I pay my own tax and National Insurance contrubitions in doing so. Look into the HMRC website and see for yourself the information on self employment benefits!!
What makes you think that CM's dont come under this meaning. What do you think the job is that we do?
You saying this just tells me you have no respect for the service you receive.

From reading Mr Anchovy's comment I think it should be considered what I said in another thread - CM's should look into changing their title because some parents do not understand the proffesional role we have.

diceyreilly there are many good professional childminders out there, don't let the bullies put you off.

pudding, the term 'worker' has a specific (although admittedly not very clear) meaning in employment law. Childminders do not fit within this meaning, and so they are not workers. This has nothing to do with HMRC (formerly Inland Revenue).

I show respect by paying a fair rate for the service I do actually receive: I would find it difficult to respect a service for which I had to pay when the service provider decided that I couldn't have it.

Whenever the subject of childminders charging for bank holidays comes up, people tend to forget the unfair impact that charging for bank holidays has on people, like the OP, who do not use a CM full-time. Whichever way you look at it, it is NOT fair that over the Christmas period, Dooze paid for two days of child care that she didn't get (albeit at an arbitrary half rate) but someone with different days will have got as much child care as they paid for.

The tax credit line always gets rolled out on this debate and I for one don't know or work with anyone who is entitled to a penny. It annoys me that the assumption is made that everyone out there is getting some so shouldn't question the holiday situation.

My experience of using a childminder is limited, I only entered into it once and very blindly. The holiday terms were never discussed with me and although I asked on various occasions I was not given a contract. With hindsight I realise how naive this was but never using a CM before I wasn't aware of the implications.Going on the premise that it is illogical for a self employed person to expect paid holiday, it came as a complete shock to me when the first bout of holidays arrived and there was a demand for payment.

In my initial meetings we had naturally discussed hourly rates and I had budgeted to these, to discover she wanted 4 weeks full paid holiday and full pay if she was sick while I would have to pay out again for alternative care or maybe take unpaid time off work myself whilst I paid her, i ran for the hills. I refused to pay the holiday and gave her notice, I felt the notice was more than she was entitled to seeing the contract had not been agreed and signed.

One negative experience and attacks from Childminders on forums like this made me vow to steer well clear in the future, using a childminder would be a last resort for me. The reasons behind the terms just don't stack up for me, you afterall choose to do the job, its not the parents responsibility to compensate your life choice. Amanda above suggests parents give up their jobs and look after their own kids, likewise CM's give up your self employed status and become and employee if the grass is so much greener.

Having to do my own terms and conditions as a CM I did research on self employment in regards to holidy pay. I found from the Inland Revenue that an Self employed person can ask to be paid for their holiday if they come under the defination of a worker and work unde a contract - we are not a shop where a customer purchases an item, we provide a service under a contract for what we would hope be as long as 18 months which would means for us to recieve some benefit in he form of a paid holiday.
What a CM agrees to be paid for this benefit is within their choice but parents should as least consider paying their CM at least half of their fee, show respect for the serive yu are receiving.(hmm)

How many of you baa humbugh scrooges out there, bemoaning childminders, actually receive a percentage in tax credits to pay for your childcare. The only reason you can go to work is because someone else looks after your children and does a very good job. If you are that unhappy in your bad atittudes towards childminders, give up your job and look after your children yourself. What a childminder decides to charge or not to charge is their own private business, they are providing you a service they are not employed by parents.I would have thought parents would want to keep a good childminder and not weigh up the value of their bank balance against their children.