To charge ap for *another* ruined item of clothing and trashed iron or not?

The title describes the deal you've got with the person in question - there is no longer such a thing as an au pair visa in the UK and in plenty of countries there never has been. I've had au pairs, whom I paid 80 euros pw plus bed, board and transport, to do the school run and around 3 hours of child entertaining every day. They were sort of quasi part of the family (I think how much this is really true depends on how much you click with the person). I've had nanny/housekeepers who I paid 200 euros pw plus bed and board to do all the chores plus some babysitting. They were much less part of the family and more like domestic servants. By the way, these are standard rates and assumptions in Italy where I live. Either way they only did tasks that were contractually agreed and I never docked pay, including for very expensive car crashes and mindlessly daft laundry accidents! These things happen - it's the price you pay for the convenience of having domestic help.

If you're interested in the legal status etc, you should also think about insurance status, not only for damage to you and your stuff, but for if the ap has an accident in your house.

Yes, the discussion may not be appropriate to this thread, but I am quite interested generally in the legal/employment status of "au pairs".

Employment law and tax law are different, so in theory someone could be an employee under employment law, but not under tax law.
The term 'Au-Pair' was an immigration category. It no longer exists, so there is no such thing in England now as an 'au-pair' - in my view. Live-In Mothers Help may be a better Job Title.
We have various job titles for people working in domestic homes... maybe it's time not to have so many different job titles - it gets too confusing.

Docking pocket money (wages) in this particular case may well fall down to whatever contract/agreement is in place. I wouldn't get too hung up over legal things though... concentrate more on the relationship between parent and live-in helper.

Maybe this is a subject for a different thread, but I am quite interested now that there is no specific visa if an au pair is an employee or not. My feeling is that they are - as nannynick has said in the past, the job title is a bit irrelevant and they may as well be called a mother's help. They may earn too little to be taxed, and NMW doesn't apply as they live-in, but as employees (or at the very least, as workers) they do have certain legal rights. I would think those rights would include sick pay and not having unauthorised deductions from wages.

Surely it can't be based on how much money you earn though? When I was a teenager with a part time job I earned less than £90 a week but was still an employee.

I think that is true for most of "au pairs" people talk about on here and elsewhere. Most of them come from the EU, and don't require a visa. A lot of them come in on a holday maker visa, which has now been replaced by the tier 5.. or is it 5? And, I think the au pair visa is now defunct.

I thought that whether or not someone was an employee was determined by whether or not the make over the £90 odd threshold for tax. I'm not really sure because I have only employed nannies to date and obviously always paid over this threshold.

I think people get hung up on the term "au pair" when actually a true au pair coming into the country on an au pair visa is a thing of the past.

But it does mean the girl is an employee rather than an au pair though doesn't it?

Live-in employees are exempt from minimum wage laws. It has nothin to do with what visa has granted them the right to work here.

Ooooh...... that's very interesting, tryharder.

Er.. if anyone is interested, Thailand is not on the list of countries from where it is permissable to employ an aupair (most of them are now in the EU anyway). So that means the Thai AP in question would not have an aupair visa but is in the UK in some other capacity. If she is a student, then she is entitled to take employment for upto 15 hours a week only but this is "employment" so the work would be subjected to minimum wage laws etc..

The only other applicable visa category would be "overseas domestic worker" but you have to have employed someone for a year or more abroad before bringing them to the UK.

I must say this was a very interesting read.
No comment though, think you all said enough

Kitty - if you are going to call people illiterate and accuse them of extrapolating, I thought you might like to understand the true meaning of the words - clearly my efforts were unappreciated, but feel free to apologise for your incorrect accusations any time you like

Inferior to you PMSL

You don't want to answer how much you pay your AP, fair enough, but then you can't expect us to believe you pay her 'over the odds'. Mind you, sadly now, even if you did tell us, I wouldn't believe you.

As, you say, we aren't aware of what other help you have... would you like to tell us? Nanny, Cleaner/Housekeeper, Gardener...??

On one thread you claim to do everything which was traditionally a womans role (completely ignoring the fact you pay someone to do some of it).

You are condescending.

You tell people they are illiterate/speaking crap/extrapolating/making up stories just because they can compare things you have written and see the things you say are inconsistent (at best).

You don't care what the rules are about hosting (note the word HOSTING) an AP.

You only respond to small parts of posts that you want to be narky about, then ignore the rest.

I could go on, but I really can't be bothered.

What really makes me laugh though, is that you are prepared to be this awful to your AP over something you can replace for £10.

Athene - not doing someones dirty laundry is a priviledge an Au Pair has to earn . I would expect an au pair to do any household chore I was willing to do... and then some Bloody hell, it's no wonder some of you have problems with your nannies/au pairs. You do realise they aren't prisoners doing time don't you??

Thanks, MS.

DM there is AP (25 hours) and AP+ (norm up to 35).

I wouldn't dock her pay.

Is there a legal limit on the hours an au pair can work?

I obviously misunderstood the role, as I thought it was for those studying to improve their foreign language skills (ie at college) whilst living with a family, and helping out with childcare / light household tasks in return for bed and board, and a small wage.

Various recent threads on MN have shown this not to be the case, but I can't find any definitive answers by googling.

I have never asked any AP to wash the dirty laundry - fiddling around with a strangers smalls? It is one of their tasks to remove clean wet laundry and tumble/hang on line if dry - although have had to show them all where to put the pegs!

Gap used to have little cards with all the laundry symbols on, we have 2 laminated (double sided) on the inside of the detergents cupboard in the utility room. (more for DH than AP)

Oh, and Kitty, my advise would be to not fine her by docking her pay. But, I would ask her to pay half and she could work that off in the form of extra babysitting hours. That way I'm not making her scrape by but I'm getting something in return for her negligence. And, let's face it, leaving a hot iron in the basket is pretty darned negligent.

willow, not necessarily. But people do often have contracts. There is threshold on when you become an employer/employee and I think it's around £90 per week. Someone else will know more...

Well... I think it's a case of au pairs getting a bit ahead of themselves and thinking they can have what nannies have. I agree that a nanny should not be expected to do the families laundry. But, an au apair has not yet earned that priviledge. I think any household chore is fair game for au pairs. I wouldn't leave them with long term sole charge of young children. I would expect an au pair to do any household chore I was willing to do... and then some. I think the fair place to put limits is in her hours, and I assume Kitty has done this.

Also, anyone with half a brain would expect a fair amount of laundry to be generated in house with 3 adults and six children. Our washer and dryer never stop and I have two children and a husband who works away all week.

However, I do think that it might be a tad unrealistic to expect an au pair to be GOOD at laundry, ironing, etc. I think this one has clearly demonstrated otherwise. I'd probably hire a cleaner to come in for a whole day and give this silly au apair laundry training. I think I'd take the iron away before she burned my house down, which would be a tad more costly than a GAP sweatshirt.

I don't think anyone answered this, but is an au pair legally an employee?

you're right Athene, of course you are... but those guidelines are there to help stop problems arising. It's pretty obvious to me, that allowing an AP to wash/tumble/iron my clothes is going to lead to problems.
Maybe it would be for the best if Kitty got her AP just to do the kids laundry. It wouldn't cost much to send her laundry for ironing and then when they shrink/fray/whatever she can complain.

I would like to point out (and we all know how much I luv 'em) that what agencies say and what is actual legal are often two different things. I can write any job description I want and put it into a contract and give her the title of "au pair".

Kitty, step away. (for your own peace of mind)