Should parents pay nanny's for the nanny to take them out?

I do not disagree with you.

Well, in respect of your last paragraph, those are two components of a much longer list of things which might go towards supporting a claim that a worker is self-employed and not an employee, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

It's actually in real life rarely difficult to determine whether a work situation is employed or self employed. And I say that as some one who has employed a nanny in a personal capcity, employed people in my capacity as a partner in a law firm and given advice (from the employment team in my firm) to clients.

Usually nannies have a card of expenses and parents give them £100-200 a month to spend on the kids trips etc (or whatever amount you agree to) was this discussed when you started? What did you put in your contract?

I'd just say to her that having a kitty card for expenses is how you've always worked for families and if not you'll stick to free trips like the park.

Well, in respect of your last paragraph, those are two components of a much longer list of things which might go towards supporting a claim that a worker is self-employed and not an employee, but it's not the be-all and end-all.

What I was meaning about being unclear from the OP was quite what has been said - it sounds like op is saying the parents were saying OP could spend her own money on the children and HMRC would pay her back, but because that is such a nonsensical thing for anyone to have said, I was thinking there's been a misunderstanding somewhere.

As in, OP pays for children, is then paid back by the parents (as indeed my clients do when I buy things for their use), and this goes on the tax return as a legitimate expense. That would have made more sense.

They reduce the tax bill- they don't get £5,000 back.

If only 🤣🤣🤣🤣

The "claiming back" is complete nonsense in the context here. If you incur certain expenses in connection with your work or income you can set those costs against your pre tax income to reduce the amount of tax you pay.

For example if you were a self employed plumber you can set the cost of petrol, vehicle insurance, etc used in the course of your business to get to and from the places you're working (but not just to get to the main office) Let's say the plumber takes in £50,000 per year and spends £5,000 on those. They deduct the £5,000 before calculating tax due. They reduce the tax bill- they don't get £5,000 back.

A nanny will only be self employed if she is providing a service to several families and she sets her own hours and days of work.

Yes, I wondered if that was what was being inferred, but then I couldn't for the life of me work out how off-setting an expense on a tax return was in any way the same as HMRC paying someone to do their job.

I wondered that. So many people in this world think us self employed can "claim back" the cost of things...if only they knew what we "claim back" is the right not to pay tax to the value of 20% of a purchase.

Nanny here.

In my view this is wrong!

My last family had a kitty pot which was for the children and me ( if I wanted lunch on days out too )

Any extra expenses then I just kept the receipts.

In my experience be careful of those who take the piss!
At the end of the day your working for a living

I think the idea is that the Nanny claims that the outings with the child etc are actually Business expenses and so she can use them to offset against her tax she pays annually as a SE person. So she will not get the money back, she will just pay less tax. Its a nonsense.
Depending on how she is set up as SE (not that I believe she is from the info she has given) she may or may not be able to do this.

I think the op and or the children's mum are confused as to how you claim expenses on your return. I'm assuming they think you claim the days out as expenses and hmrc pays money back to you (if only 🤣) rather then your expenses being part of the calculation to what tax you owe hmrc.

How bizarre for her to say this to you? She's a nurse, maybe she's not loaded, but how much of a piss taker is she? To expect you to fund trips out for her kids and get remunerated after spending hours filling out tax forms in a years time?

Outrageous. If she won't pay for days out then it's just free stuff or staying home. She should be paying your travel costs as well as wages ,etc to take them to the beach or country park, even if the entrance itself is free.

Exactly this, and from the OP I'm still clueless as to what is meant by all this "claiming" back. I can't make head nor tale of it.

What a cheek, if she wants them taken out she needs to pay. Why on earth would you pay for it. CF at the finest

Yes you can be a self employed nanny, its hrmc guidelines that determine if op falls into this category, not us here on mumsnet. If op has any concerns she can speak to hmrc to check and she can tell them all the details of her work . They will be able to tell her.

Oh but I did like the word dummarises 😁

We have part time help with our disabled child and we pay;

Fuel supplement on days she takes him out in her car £5-£10 depending how much driving is involved.
All outing costs (admission, gift shop, extras, parking…etc)
All food costs (he loves mcdonalds) this also includes her food as she eats with him!

I thought this was pretty standard tbh

I think at the very least they need to provide you with a kitty you can use for any trips out and about. You should absolutely be reimbursed. Are you keeping a record of all your expenses? Have you got a contract? This makes me wonder whether they are paying you a fair wage….

Ah, I knew you were going to say you were self employed. You’ve been very silly and have gotten yourself into a situation where you have limited protections under the law. I would be handing in my notice, whatever that means when you aren’t actually employed by them, and looking for a proper nannying job or set yourself up as a childminder if you insist on being self employed. Then you set the terms and your rates.

Exactly
Although being SE is easier to argue if you have more than 1 client its not the only criteria. One that HMRC have used a lot to win cases is the rule of substitution - can you send someone in your place?
Its vanishingly unlikely ANY Nanny position would meet this
OP, you are being ripped off, you should have sick pay, maternity pay,possibly a pension and other perks of being Employed.
The expenses thing is the least of it

100%. In the days of DS being in nursery and then having a childminder, if I didn’t pay for the extra trips he didn’t go.

OP the self-employed thing is complicated, there are certain criteria about being self-employed or employed which HMRC has rules about, it's not actually something you have a huge 'choice' over though how you frame your contract etc does obviously have a bearing. Just because HMRC accepted you at the start doesn't mean it's right now.

Eg, are all your earnings through this one customer/employer? Do they provide you will all the equipment you need to work? Etc etc. The more they provide, the more they are deemed 'employers'. So the expenses thing probably comes from that - in an employed situation, they would provide expenses. In a self-employed, you do it (but you would then normally charge back / roll it into your hourly rate which you set high enough to cover it).

In terms of claiming back via self-employed, remember it's not the cost of the ticket you're claiming back. It's reducing your profits for the year to lower your tax liability. So it's just your tax you're reducing, you're still paying for the ticket, you're not getting that whole value back!

As others have said, they should pay for reasonable expenses. You should agree a 'kitty' with them- clearly, bigger trips etc they wouldn't be wanting you to do - they will want to do these things as special outings with their kids at weekends etc. But local activities etc, absolutely. They can give you a pre-paid cash card to use, which could be like £15 a week or something and it's up to you how to manage it - some weeks it'll be parks all the time, other weeks a bit of expense.

Maybe time to look for a new post! They are massively taking the absolute piss. WTF? Even if you stick to the park/museums etc then they will want an ice cream /drink and so on .I would be looking elsewhere and moving on .

I was a nurse and many years ago employed a nanny - I barely broke even financially. However I do think you shouldn't be paying out of your own pocket for your/their expenses but I also think they should be agreed up front so as your employer can think whether she can actually afford it. I certainly at that time had to think twice. The extras almost tipped the balance as to whether it was actually worth me working at all.

Short answer "yes". Long answer - "hell, yes".