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Original poster

Childcare and working - WWYD?

65 replies

Wittyname10 · 13/10/2023 12:43

I've received lots of helpful advice here in the past and am coming to the wise sages of mumsnet for more help.

I work in a job that is seasonal, think 5 months of busy/on the phone/sales etc, 7 months of being relatively quiet, with spreadsheets and lots of desk-based work.

My wife and I have 2 kids, 2.5 yo boy and 4.5 year old girl. Daughter will be going to school in August - Scotland - and son will be starting nursery in February when he turns 3.

For various reasons we are now on to our third childminder in our rural setting. They are very limited in number and the ones we have fill up very quickly.

Current childminder who looks after my son had to give up caring for our daughter as she was having to do school runs of her own and sending over an hour each way dropping off/picking up my daughter and her kids, with my son spending way longer than she was happy with in the car.

I have been WFH on Mondays and Tuesdays so I can drop the kids off and pick my daughter up from nursery at 3pm, my wife picking up my son on her way home from work at 5pm.

When I get home at 3.10 with my daughter she has TV for an hour or so, and then busies herself with activities, colouring and painting or imaginative play etc.

I was called in to my line manager this morning to discuss the situation, as this WFH is not contracted, but has been something everyone has been doing since COVID. The company even consulted on hybrid working to assess how it was working for everyone and approved to continue the hybrid set up.

My situation was approved - unofficially - by my line manager who said if asked he cannot lie, but won't mention anything to senior managers.

I was told this morning it has been questioned, with a screenshot being sent of me appearing to be "away" (MS teams) for over an hour. I was not privvy to when this was but I could have been on my mobile/having lunch etc. The point is that there are times where I'm not active on Teams and sometimes maybe take a longer coffee break than I would at the office if I'm WFH when theres not a lot happening work-wise (this time of year is what we call the "dead zone" between sales ending and end of year things starting).

Now I should point out that when I WFH I am online usually an hour before I need to be to accommodate the school run, will respond to emails after working hours etc, so I'm trying to re-pay the company in terms of time because they are (were) accommodating my needs.

I was told this morning that a potential promotion in the next year is being reconsidered as I am perceived to not be flexible enough to do the job that is coming up. It will involve a lot of travel, and I'm being told that me needing to be at home for school runs 2 days a week inhibits my ability to do the job.

We will not be able to find any childcare options, wraparound care has cost us 2 childminders already and isn't really an option. Everyone is full, including the private nurseries around us.

Family are close to us, but it's unfair to expect them to step in for 2 days a week - particularly my BIL as they have 3 kids of their own so couldn't take their kids and ours to/from nursery/school in 1 run anyway.

My wifes parents are retired and are busy people, they already do a day per week of childcare for us as well as various bits and bobs of childcare for my BIL's 3 kids.

My parents are 80 miles away, so I'd be asking them to come through weekly to do about 8 hours of childcare over 2 days.

My wife is already working her minimum hours at work and cannot do any less than her 3.5 days per week.

Sorry this is so long, I didn't want to leave anything out.

My options are:

1 - I tell work I have explored every option and this is literally all I can do, accepting it will effectively rule me out of an opportunity that will not come around again in the next possibly 30 years and make do with hat I've got.

2 - I tell work I need more flexibility and if they cannot provide this I will be looking elsewhere.

3 - Place an unfair burden on my family in order to advance my career

4 - Ask my wife to look for a job that can allow her to drop more time, which we could just about manage financially, but she'd be dropping a whole day at work to pick up the kids at 3pm which seems total overkill.

5 - anything else?

This is a nightmare, so thank you for reading and contributing. All opinions welcome.

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Original poster
Wittyname10 · 24/10/2023 12:18

SurreyisSunny · 17/10/2023 07:47

I have a similar situation coming up for myself. Next year my DS will start school and I’m hoping to collect him from school at 3 and plonk him with his toys or Tv while I finish work. I’ll prob not tell my employer but I know plenty of people who do this. His school will be 2 mins walk away. He’ll do wrap around care the days I’m in the office.

Id not threaten them with leaving. At the moment more and more companies are going for more days in the office so you’ll unlikely find something more flexible.

Do you think a flexible working request would be considered whereby you finish at 3pm 2 days and do longer hours on the other days. You could formalise that you basically start work earlier those days.

It’s a nightmare isn’t it? Is your job one that you can work around your workload?

Im weighing up all the options at the moment. Leaving the job is bottom
of the list unless I can get something lined up elsewhere, this is an industry where everyone knows everyone and I’m hesitant to circulate a CV in case it were to get back to my company.

Like I say it’s an option, but it still leaves me “inflexible” for the two days I’d be picking up at 3pm, when in fact all it would be in reality is I would need the space to plan those days accordingly. Eg if there was something urgent I could arrange a granny to collect them or I was allowed to actually plan my own week and not be treated like a child. I’m 30 years old ffs!

OP posts:
SurreyisSunny · 17/10/2023 07:47

I have a similar situation coming up for myself. Next year my DS will start school and I’m hoping to collect him from school at 3 and plonk him with his toys or Tv while I finish work. I’ll prob not tell my employer but I know plenty of people who do this. His school will be 2 mins walk away. He’ll do wrap around care the days I’m in the office.

Id not threaten them with leaving. At the moment more and more companies are going for more days in the office so you’ll unlikely find something more flexible.

Do you think a flexible working request would be considered whereby you finish at 3pm 2 days and do longer hours on the other days. You could formalise that you basically start work earlier those days.

Blondeshavemorefun · 16/10/2023 20:54

If your daughters friends and cousins are going to same school could t th pick up for you twice a week and have her till 5 for play date /you pay them

As under 2hrs won't need to register as a cm etx

Original poster
Wittyname10 · 16/10/2023 09:32

Thank you all for your input, some great practical advice with minimal patronising.

Our childminder has, fortunately, agreed to do wraparound care for the 2 kids starting when she returns from her holiday in a weeks time, so thats a positive. It's costing us basically another mortgage but I guess we all have to deal with that don't we?

This is probably a temporary fix, as her kids go to a different school to the one my daughter will go to, so in the summer things will in all likelihood change again and she will have to stop but at least now I can go to my boss and say I've sorted it for now.

I've actually found in the last couple of days that I've felt a lot lighter at the prospect of NOT taking on a promotion at this time. It would put so much pressure on me and my family that I don't know if it's really what I want, so that has given me food for thought.

We can maintain our current lifestyle, which is by no means lavish but we get by, at our current levels of work. It's not what we planned long term but this problem of childcare is not going to go away until the kids are probably 10/11 so its definitely a 6 or 7 year problem.

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Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 19:16

happylittlesloth · 15/10/2023 19:14

Have you applied for flexible working?

I haven’t, and I’m not really sure what our flexible working policy is but I will find out tomorrow.

OP posts:
happylittlesloth · 15/10/2023 19:14

Have you applied for flexible working?

Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 19:12

Neriah · 15/10/2023 13:34

Managers are not that stupid. We know who is faking it, and there are many ways we can prove it.

We also do not allow WFH where someone is in sole charge of a child during working hours. And school runs etc have to be logged out time not "breaks". Attendance at work is measured the same way as in the office - if you are away from work then you must log out or show evidence of a legitimate and allowable reason (such as a personal medical appointment).

To be honest I think your employer has been honest. If you cannot meet their requirements then you perhaps need to look for a job that works better for you, or find childcare.

Whilst I understand your comments about unfairness towards your family, I'm not sure why you think it's fair that your employer has to pick up the problem?

Show quote history

Sorry Neriah the post 2 up was meant as a response to yours, can’t fix it on my mobile.

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Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 19:11

Tohaveandtohold · 15/10/2023 13:22

I sometimes show as away on teams, infact my manager is permanently ‘away’ on teams however if you send her a message, she replies within a minute. I feel that if your productivity is not suffering then it’s a shame that they are sending screenshots of your teams profile. At my work, we have monthly productivity target and as long as you meet them all and come to the office on your 2 core days, you’re fine.
Anyway, in your shoes, I’ll try and see what can work before passing off on promotion.

  1. an afterschool nanny. There’s a website called childcare.co.uk and some other similar ones where you can search for someone who offers something like that in your area.
  2. As I understand, your first child is not going to school till next year, can you not just change her to go back to the nursery your younger one goes to for those 2 days and your wife can bring them both home. Obviously it’ll cost more than it costs at the moment.
  3. when she’s going to school, make sure you select one that has wrap around care even if it’s not the closest to you so long as you can get in and get her there. The outstanding school that’s 10 mins walk from my house does not have after school club and I ended up sending my dd to a ‘good’ school that’s 7 minutes drive ( would be 40 mins walk ) because of their after school provision.
  4. if renting, move house to a bigger city with better childcare options if it does not affect yours or your wife’s work.

Thanks for the feedback.

Point 1: tried without success to find someone.

Point 2: youngest is at a childminder who for her own kids sake she had to stop having my daughter as she wasn’t able to do the multiple drop offs at different locations in the mornings/afternoons. The childminded kids were spending nearly 3 hours a day just driving about doing the pick ups etc.

Point 3: we don’t have that flexibility unfortunately, there’s only 1 school she can go to and, all her friends are going and she has a couple of cousins there too so it wouldn’t really be fair on her.

Point 4: own our home, we moved here so we could afford to get somewhere a bit bigger than what we could afford if we were nearer big cities. Also finally starting to our roots down here after moving here during covid. My in laws also sold the family home and moved here to be closer to the grand kids, I think they’d be a bit pissed off if we moved away!

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Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 19:04

Thanks for your feedback first of all.

I do think they’ve been honest yes, but their inflexibility towards the situation we are in has been a bit OTT. I know for a fact that there is a married couple within the organisation who are both 4 days a week and don’t sen their youngest to nursery/childminder etc, their days overlap and they seem to have been overlooked/ignored by senior managers. They are both more senior than me, I don’t really know what to make of that other than it’s not really my business to question it.

I don’t want my employer to take responsibility, that would be daft. I’m just asking for a bit of breathing space for a few hours a week, when I am actually able to and do work, my daughter watches tv and plays away by herself. It’s not like I’m downing tools to look after her for the 4 hours we spend in the house together during my working day.

I’m not meaning to try and minimise the issue, I just don’t see how, in my role, it’s affecting my performance. It just isn’t and there’s no metric around that would suggest it is hindering my job performance.

OP posts:
happylittlesloth · 15/10/2023 13:37

Apply formally for flexible working

Neriah · 15/10/2023 13:34

BoohooWoohoo · 13/10/2023 17:19

Look up videos on how to fake your Teams status so it looks like you're online. (I've seen these on social media)

Managers are not that stupid. We know who is faking it, and there are many ways we can prove it.

We also do not allow WFH where someone is in sole charge of a child during working hours. And school runs etc have to be logged out time not "breaks". Attendance at work is measured the same way as in the office - if you are away from work then you must log out or show evidence of a legitimate and allowable reason (such as a personal medical appointment).

To be honest I think your employer has been honest. If you cannot meet their requirements then you perhaps need to look for a job that works better for you, or find childcare.

Whilst I understand your comments about unfairness towards your family, I'm not sure why you think it's fair that your employer has to pick up the problem?

Tohaveandtohold · 15/10/2023 13:22

I sometimes show as away on teams, infact my manager is permanently ‘away’ on teams however if you send her a message, she replies within a minute. I feel that if your productivity is not suffering then it’s a shame that they are sending screenshots of your teams profile. At my work, we have monthly productivity target and as long as you meet them all and come to the office on your 2 core days, you’re fine.
Anyway, in your shoes, I’ll try and see what can work before passing off on promotion.

  1. an afterschool nanny. There’s a website called childcare.co.uk and some other similar ones where you can search for someone who offers something like that in your area.
  2. As I understand, your first child is not going to school till next year, can you not just change her to go back to the nursery your younger one goes to for those 2 days and your wife can bring them both home. Obviously it’ll cost more than it costs at the moment.
  3. when she’s going to school, make sure you select one that has wrap around care even if it’s not the closest to you so long as you can get in and get her there. The outstanding school that’s 10 mins walk from my house does not have after school club and I ended up sending my dd to a ‘good’ school that’s 7 minutes drive ( would be 40 mins walk ) because of their after school provision.
  4. if renting, move house to a bigger city with better childcare options if it does not affect yours or your wife’s work.
rookiemere · 15/10/2023 11:41

First of all well done for taking your childcare responsibilities seriously- I know it should be a given, but it feels like it's unusual for a DF to put them at the heart and centre of his arrangements.

However because of this, I agree with your employers. You need to wfh 2 days a week and if the new role requires significant travel, then without different childcare arrangements its hard to see how that would work.

Also it's important to show a bit of give and take, particularly in the scenario where your manager is letting you wfh without childcare.

I'd be scrupulous about making sure you don't take more than your allotted breaks and if you are working late or early - especially early as people don't see that as much - make sure to send out emails and meeting invites so people can see you're working then. Also if a meeting comes in at lunchtime make sure you never say you're off for a run or whatever, either accept it and reschedule or say you have a clash.It sounds a bit cheesy and demeaning but a lot of working life is about the image you present and sadly at the minute it feels like they might view you as being a bit work shy - absolutely not saying this is the case, but be careful of the image you present.

cloudchaos · 15/10/2023 10:37

I’m surprised someone would be sending screenshots of your Teams status. I don’t think people do that to team members that are producing a good level of output. I have Teams on my phone and sometimes the sync between phone and PC ends up with me looking offline when I’m not. I also sometimes choose to show my status as offline so I can focus on a specific task. I would argue the Teams status with them, because it’s not nice to feel that you’re not trusted/watched and personally I wouldn’t want to work for a company who is accusing me of skiving.

However, you really can’t have the kids there when you WFH. I understand, I have a 8 and 5 year old. What do you do in school holidays? It‘s so unprofessional when you’re on a teams call and someone has kids running around or screaming behind them. They can’t possibly be focusing on ensuring the kids are attended to well, and working well.

I have a nanny, and WFH full time and I appreciate not everyone can do this but I would never try to juggle kids and work at the same time.

I am contracted 9-5.30 but I actually work 8-6.30pm most days and rarely take lunch. This is my choice but if I were for some reason to need to do a school run, I would do this instead of, not as well as, a lunch break. I never take “tea breaks” certainly not extended ones. If I have no work; I find work. I’ve never had a job where I can’t find something proactive to do. If it’s that bad, ask your boss for some work.

It sounds like you need to sit down with your wife and look at the overall work/finances to determine what is best to do. It sounds like the problem with the new role is travel, not your current WFH situation. If the new role is going to pay significantly more it may make more sense for your family for your wife to work less, for you to push forward in your own career. Equally maybe your wife has other opportunities she’s not pursuing and you could both focus on her career for a bit? I think any decisions need to be part of a wider picture and we don’t have those details to best advise.

JussathoB · 15/10/2023 10:20

Also love the practical advice and pointers in Autumnleaves post! Fab.
But I would avoid getting into a tussle with employer. Just be very polite and professional and don’t back yourself into any corners.

JussathoB · 15/10/2023 10:17

You really have my sympathy OP, as do all parents of young children who are trying to juggle childcare and work.
I think you choose your words carefully. You explain that you take your job seriously, you always put in effort to fulfil your role to a high standard. You want to progress your career with promotion if possible and if the right opportunity can be found. You also have family responsibilities for young children and hybrid working suits you at this time. You would not be able to agree to unlimited travel in addition to working hours and/or staying away from home etc due to childcare duties, you would need some flexibility or influence over this. So depending on what they believe are the requirements of the promotion role, it may not be possible for you at the moment. Keep it positive and reasonable.
Then reassess the situation in say three years time when both children are at school and you and your wife can see what working patterns etc are doable. You have enough on your plate, I’m not sure it’s worth shaking everything up by for example trying to change your wife’s job right now.
Always good to keep your CV up to date and be aware of job opportunities with other firms but don’t leap out of frying pan into the fire if your current job is overall ok at the moment.

AutumnLeaves5 · 15/10/2023 10:10

If being “away” from teams is the only issue they’ve raised, I’d question it. If they have issues with your performance, work quality, ability to get hold of you when needed etc that would be different.

I’ll often show “away” on teams as I want time to think a problem through (the old fashioned way with a notebook!) or have printed a document off to read to have a break from looking at a screen. Fortunately where I work doesn’t measure performance on who is active on teams the most.

That being said, most companies are clear you can’t work from home and be looking after young children. You should be looking to formalize your arrangement with a flexible working request so you can either work 7am-3pm on Mon/Tues or use your lunch break time to pick up the kids and then have childcare at home.

The promotion sounds like it’s still a while away - can you just say that your childcare arrangements will be different next year and you don’t want to rule yourself out of any opportunities? You’ve then got 6-12 months to figure out the childcare, or decide it’s not the right option for your family.

Overthebow · 15/10/2023 09:24

I don’t think there’s any issue with you working out in your lunch break, but then you also eat lunch at your desk (so not 100% focussed on work), take longer coffee breaks, do the school run then your dd is at home and must sometimes need attention. You need to see this from your employers view, you aren’t having your full attention on work and they are already being very flexible allowing you to do this. They are saying you can continue, but you won’t be able to have the promotion which will require more focus and time in the office and travelling. That’s fair enough really. You should sit down with your wife and discuss the options, what does she think? Is she willing to drop her career further so you can go up in yours, or would it be better for you to carry on. In the job you’re in and look for promotion when you have less childcare needs.

Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 09:17

Also - what’s the issue with working out during a lunch break? It’s my time to spend as I wish. It’s a break that I’m not paid for, it’s my time.

OP posts:
Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 09:15

It’s a commercial and sales role. It’s widely accepted in the industry that we have peaks and troughs and those troughs are very very quiet whereby we can have staff effectively working part time for half the year.

I frequently raise with my manager that I’ve nothing to do, literally nothing. And I regularly get told to not worry about it. So my direct feedback from my line manager is that if there’s nothing to do then so be it. We make it up in the busier periods.

The nursery are 9-3 with no after school club facility/breakfast club etc.

OP posts:
Lorelaigilmore88 · 15/10/2023 09:08

Wittyname10 · 14/10/2023 20:29

I am always ready to work. Always. I have no doubt about that. If I’m not at my desk I have my headset on and my phone in my pocket, if not in my hand. If I choose to take my lunch break and go for a run then take my lunch at my desk that’s up to me.

Show quote history

Yes but if you are working out/going for a run on your lunch break and then having lunch at your desk thats more time that you arent actually fully working.
I'm not sure of the exact nature of your role but having head set on and being available for calls whilst doing stuff is not the same as actually doing work.

It sounds to me like you are asking for too much. Looking after children whilst wfh, going out to do the school run, working out/gym during your lunch.
If your manager is raising this you need to listen to them and acknowledge that they've given you as much flexibility as they can. Its not just about being green on teams, maybe they have noticed your performance is lacking overall.
I have Dc 7 at school and Dc3 at nursery and I hybrid work. I don't do the school run when i am wfh, daughter goes to breakfast and after school club even on my wfh days and dc3 goes to nursery on days I am wfh.

Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 08:51

Haveyouseenthemuffinman · 15/10/2023 08:47

Honestly the promotion vs childcare is something that millions of us have to deal with, regularly.

I’m very aware of that.

I had a situation that I’ve never come across before and thought I’d ask for some advice. Most of the people I’d normally go to are of a different generation where career came first, a job is a means to an end for me and I’m not that career focussed.

OP posts:
Haveyouseenthemuffinman · 15/10/2023 08:47

Honestly the promotion vs childcare is something that millions of us have to deal with, regularly.

pieintheski · 15/10/2023 08:42

put your career progression on hold until your children are in secondary school, as parents have done since careers were invented

Original poster
Wittyname10 · 15/10/2023 08:38

OhamIreally · 14/10/2023 22:12

Do you not understand though that you can't expect to take a full lunch break AND do the school run?

It's fine to ask for flexibility but that doesn't mean you don't work your hours.

Being "ready to work" is not the same as working. I wfh and am at my desk during my working day. I look for areas i can improve during quiet times, develop processes etc.

I start an hour or so before my contracted start time which is 9, and log off often around 5:30/6 and will respond to email if they come through after that time to make
up any time I miss running the kids around. I should have maybe said that in my OP. I’ve even taken calls in the car while doing so. I do that because I want to feel like I’m not taking the piss and this was discussed with my line manager who said he was happy with that kind of set up.

I genuinely think I’m not taking the piss with the time. And that’s not taking in to account the nights away, driving time etc that extend my job beyond the usual hours. There is a lot of extra time I give to the company. It’s not a one way street of take take take.

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