A bit of an upsetting thread but please let me know your thoughts.

I think you should give her another chance. In a way, the test of a good child minder/nanny etc is not that accidents never happen (because, clearly, they do) but more importantly how they deal with them.

I think your nanny dealt with everything admirably and it would be a shame to lose her over this.

Read through the thread - some good advice on here.

Have I got it right that the white spirit had paintbrushes in it (in a cup or something)? Then I would be equally pissed off with the decorators for leaving it there, especially because they know you have children. In that case it is understandable that the nanny didn't spot it.

Fwiw I don't think it's a huge problem leaving a child that age in the bath alone briefly - I did with my dd, we lived in a flat when she was that age, and I used to make sure I chatted to her when I was out of the bathroom so I knew she was ok.

She could have only been out for a couple of seconds - plenty enough time for him to tip the stuff everywhere.

I think your conduct through this has been really good, obviously you were upset and it's probably the best thing you could have done to give you all some breathing space.

I also think that your nanny responded well to this accident. She showered him and took him to the hospital. To be honest she would have known you would have been upset, if she was less of a nanny she could have completely covered the incident up and you would never have known. So thank god she behaved as she did.

She is probably mortified. See how it goes at the meeting, I imagine that she will be really apologetic and will promise to be ultra careful in future. I would give her a second chance.

And don't feel guilty. I know it's easier said than done, I have worked full time since dd was tiny, and there have been various times when she has hurt herself, and I have been crucified that I wasn't there. It absolutely doesn't make you less of a mum. So try not to feel too bad.

x-post edam

I have been following this thread - just a little point regarding her rights - it sounds as though she has not been with you long is that right?

If it's less than a year there is no obligation to follow the statutory procedure, you could just fire her if you want to, without all that palaver. She has no unfair dismissal rights before a year's service unless there's some kind of discrimination involved.

If it's more than a year's service you do hvae to follow the statutory procedure but I don't think it would be unreasonable to dismiss having followed it, I'm sure this could be seen as gross misconduct, so no need to go through warnings, etc

How long has she worked for you? If it's less than a year, she can't claim for unfair dismissal unless it is to do with some very specific issues, such as pregnancy. See Nannynick's helpful link.

I'd think very seriously about dismissing her or issuing a formal, written warning. Yes, parents may make mistakes, but you pay her to give 100 per cent attention to the children. I honestly believe you should be extra-careful if you are a childcarer. Even as a parent you tend to be much more careful if you are looking after someone else's children, don't you?

Speaking as someone who has employed a nanny and had to deal with legal disciplinary aspects I would first of all say that you should make the point to her up front that leaving a 2.5 year old in a bath unattended is negligence and you consider it to be grounds for immediate dismissal. I think that if it ever came to it, no body could legally dispute that. I would not even get caught up in discussion of whether you have ever done this or the white spirit aspect of it etc I would just make that point up front and ask her if she understands that.

You can then say that the meeting is to discuss the incident and what can be learned from it and to discuss whether or not you feel that you would be willing to give her a second chance and give her a written warning instead of dismissing her.

Usually things are less clear cut and disciplinary procedures might have to apply but I think that she really has no grounds to claim unfair dismissal if you do decide to dismiss her - you would simply have to put in writing that she had left the child unattended in the bath and you consider this to be grounds for immediate dismissal.

What you decide to do would be up to you and how you feel about keeping her on. I do think the white spirit aspect of it is only her fault because she left the child in the first place. To be honest I think you are as much at fault as she is for allowing it to be sat there so I would not focus on that. If she starts up about how it shouldnt have been there etc, you can accept that as a separate issue but say your concern is that the child was left in the bath unattended.

If she disputes that she was in the wrong then that would worry me. If she accepts it and is okay to continue the discussion on the basis of lets see if we can learn from it and move on and accept a written warning, then I can see the possibility of giving her a second chance.

Do follow the procedures posted by nannynick because even if you have sound grounds to dismiss (if you do this) it would be classed as automatically unfair dismissal if correct procedure were not followed.

To be honest its very very bad she didn't notice and that she left you child alone in bath. If it was a nursery and this happened (although unlikely but something similar) wouldn't everyone be saying she needed to be dismissed or/and that the child be removed from the nursery asap? (trying to demonstrate that just because she is a 'friend' is it different) If someone at my nursery made this sort of mistake i'm afraid they would have to go, being proactive with safety an upmost priority. If child wasn't in bath and nanny hadn't been in there so did not have chance to see the white spirit it would be different in my view.

Hope you get it sorted, and so glad your LO if ok now.

I think you need to be clear about your objectives for this meeting.
are you trying to find out what happened, so you can make a decision because you don't hav enough information at the moment?
are you intending to discipline, possibly dismiss her? if so, do you need more information, and what is that?
or are you trying to find some common ground so you can all be happy to continue with the relationship?
you need to be clear about this for your sake and also for her's - tbh this is her career at stake and it is only fair to her for you to clarify your purposes upfront.

With regard to employees rights, try reading the Discipline and Dismissals section at ACAS.

Having a meeting is good idea, as it is part of the statutory disciplinary procedure.
- Statutory Disciplinary Procedure - From ACAS Website -

• If an employer is contemplating dismissal - or action short of dismissal such as loss of pay or seniority - they must follow a three-step disciplinary procedure. This statutory procedure involves:

• a statement in writing of what it is the employee is alleged to have done
• a meeting to discuss the situation, and
• the right of appeal

• If an employer does not follow the minimum procedure then an employment tribunal may judge the dismissal 'automatically unfair'. Compensation will increase or decrease - by between 10-50% - depending on whether the employer or employee failed to adhere to the new law.

When DS2 was 2.5 he had a horrible accident in a pushchair. It was my fault as I hadn't put the brake on and he'd 'scooted' it forward until it fell down our front steps. He was badly bruised. He's 8 now and I still think about it and find it hard to understand how I could have been so careless. Had the accident happened when he was in the care of a nanny I would have dismissed her on the spot because, somehow, you expect nannies to not make the same stupid, slapdash mistakes you as a mother might make. That may be unfair and irrational, but it's how I feel. Personally, I would not be able to continue employing your nanny.

fletch - I know - and of course it's completely standard & appropriate that someone in a disciplinary situation has a moral supporter - I fully agree she's entitled to have someone (I meant to say that as answer to Primark's qu re what the nanny's rights might be).

Also, her mum may be the sort of down-to-earth person whose presence eases the whole process for everyone ... but she may not be ... hence the two minds, & thinking that (therefore) Primark needs to be carefully prepared & ready to steer the discussion.

The other outfit that might be helpful for Primark is ACAS (hope I have name right) - I am sure they have a helpline (or website even) that might offer some suggestions.

Oh - and I would say give her a second chance. A good relationship with a nanny is sometimes hard to find. And she wasn't the only one responsible for this.

Bink - she is probably terrified and if it was me I would want someone ther to hold my hand even if I thought I had done no wrong at all

Bringing her mum is understandable

I'm in two minds about the coming with her mum bit.

I can see it means she is taking this very seriously; also I guess it balances the numbers (as you & your dh will both be there won't you?) But it sort of hints at not stepping up to the mark independently - having someone to fight your corner (& ? take cover behind). I do think it means you have to be yet more formal about the meeting: which means you & dh should perhaps work out a list of heads-of-issues that you have to address. So yes, have notes. And let her take notes too.

Just to repeat what I was saying before, I think it would not help anyone if the meeting focusses on going over the event in detail again - you'll just get people getting stuck correcting each other on tiny points of fact. Although it's human nature for her to want to put her own side again, I would I think consciously try not to go down that route, & instead steer for a discussion of "how (and what) can we learn from this?" (without any promises as to her keeping the job)

I would give her a second chance. It WAS an accident. Talk with her about why he was left in the bathroom. Re-iterate that it should never happen again. It was unlucky that the white spirit was there (although a nanny should be able to spot danger in a room and deal with it tbh), but leaving a child in the bath is serious. Drowing does happen (quite frequently here in Australia). It only takes a few seconds.

She handled the incident properly, which is reassuring with a nanny - you know that if an accident happens she keeps calm and deals with it.

Re-assess the rules for the builders. Ask them to keep their stuff in a room under lock and key and to do a sweep of the house before they leave.

I have left mine in the bath at a similar age but only while upstairs putting clothes away etc....and as a cm I would never ever leave a child of that age alone, I am always so much more wary and cautious with the children I care for. However, these things do happen and it seems like lots of little errors caused the incident to occur. I would call her and chat, you have obviously adored her up until this point. I;m sure she must be incredibly shaken up and guilty about it.

I also agree that I don't feel leaving your child alone was her risk to take. It would really concern me. She MIGHT be a better nanny after this, but I don't think you should feel obliged to test this out if you are really uncomfortable. I liked Bink's advice a lot and if hte conversation still leaves you uneasy then i think it's best to part ways.

I think it's bizarre she didn't notice the white spirit, but then because I have no idea how it was laid out in the room (easily reachable, etc) it is difficult to say.

i really think you should give her a second chance - you have a good relationship - your kids love her

we all make mistakes and she shouldn't have left him in the bath but really the blame lies with the decorator who left a dangerous chemical open where children obviously go

also don't blame yourself or nanny, it was just one of those things

ps she'll be SOOO careful now

I am in the camp of giving her a second chance, but subject to what comes out of a very serious talk - so I wouldn't make your mind up yet. (Incidentally I think it was quite wise of you to do the suspension, though, as it gives both of you space to think.)

I think you and she should schedule a talk, not so that this particular incident can be discussed in detail - but so that she can tell you exactly how & why she has learnt from it. She needs to convince you that she has learnt from it, and she needs to give you chapter and verse about what things will be like from now on. If you get a lot of defensiveness ("it wouldn't have happened if X called me out of the room" or blaming the decorators) then that is not a good sign the lesson has been learnt.

The other thing that strikes me is that - you mentioned her bereavement. People can get less focussed for a bit after something like that, quite understandably - more likely to not notice details or so on. Do you think the bereavement has hit her harder than it shows? So might she might time away from the job because of that?

PS - when ds was 2 or 3 he went round with our nanny to some slightly shambolic friends of ours, who were having work done on their house. Ds ran off into another room, where a huge solid wooden door had been loosely propped against a wall - it crashed down right on his head. Our nanny was in bits and took every bit of blame going - and I just knew she would never let anything happen again. It never did!

I think I would give the nanny another chance because 1- she is very unlikely to ever do that again and 2- she did actually do a good job of dealing with the crisis when it arose.

I might, however, see if I could find a course or even a book on household health and safety. I have no idea where you would find this though.

FWIW, my 2.1 year old has broken into the bathroom on her own whilst I was hoovering up a huge mess she'd made.

Accidents can happen with children this age to anyone.

Glad you DS is home.

I'd give the nanny another chance.