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Original poster

Seasoned Nanny employers or Nannys am I right to be miffed.................( bit long sorry )

112 replies

mummypoppins · 18/09/2007 09:21

Just got to work and a bit pissed off!

Our Nanny has been with us for 9 months now. She is 38 and has 20 years experience. She is orginally from England but moved to Australia when she was 3 months old so all her nannying experience is there.

She has come to England because she wants to study Homeopathy and was attracted to our job because we have 2 school age children so she has time off during the day to study.

She is paid £270 n pw ( we live in the country in the midlands ). She has her own annexe with Kitchen , shower room , Tv dvd , free broad band etc and a completely paid for 3 yr old Scenic entirely at her disposal . She does not contribute to this in anyway apart from her own diesel ( althought tbh I dont keep too much in terms of tabs on her and if she paid for her private diesel out of the kitty I would never know ). I am very naughty too as I dont declare that she has the car for private use so neither we nor her have to pay tax on it.She takes it to College ( 35 miles away ) at least 4 times a month as well as trips to London and other places at the weekend.

She has had everything that she has asked for in terms of resources..........new Kitchen stuff for her kitchen, brand new leather sofabed and pine table and chairs for her annexe and a £100 fancy screen that she wanted to make her space look nice ( DH would explode if he new ).

I lent her money ( £500 ) in the summer to pay for her college fees and pay her early if she is going away and asks ( twice in 9 months ). We took her to Centre Parcs for the weekend for free and she didnt lift a finger when we were there or pay even for a round of drinks and we didn't count it as 2 days holiday.

She went to Edinburgh for the week in May and we ferried her to and from the airport ( 240 miles ) for free.

I bought her Tiffany jewelrry for her birthday in August.

Her contracted hours at 7am to 11 and 3 to 7pm no babysitting at all except as overtime at £10 per hour with full time to cover the holidays . She is supposed to do all nursery duties, food shopping ( she has an unlimited budget for this and always buys the best as she loves expensive things...........I have never complained ). In actual fact she did a deal with my cleaner ( who does 12 hours a week ) and the Nanny now does washing and ironing and the cleaner does all the cleaning ( incl Kids stuff ).

She runs errands if I ask and feeds cats if we are away for the weekend. She does the dishwasher during the week and will put a meal in the slow cooker on a Friday for the whole family friday evening. Quite often she finishes early on a Friday as my DH doesnt work Friday pm and so he will do the school pick up and just leave her to finish off unpacking uniform and then she clocks off.

She will organise play dates but only if it suits her. In the holidays she spent an absolute fortune on going out and eating out with the children which again I never moaned about.

All in all I think ist a pretty easy job...........we live in a huge house with a lovely garden...........she has her own patio and garden furniture.............we have a swimming pool too.............if we go out for a meal en famille at the weekend or have a takeaway etc we always include her.

I have taken her shopping at the weekend never mind if she buys magazines to read for the house etc etc.

NOW TO THE CRUNCH!

This week my husband is away on business and I am particularly stretched at work so I asked her if she would cover some etxra hours. It will be 4 hours over 3 evenings........ie till 8pm 2 nights and until 9pm on Friday night. She has said no problem and confirmed that she wants to discuss how she is going to be paid for all this time she is doing.

I AM REALLY PISSED OFF. We have 2 big holiadys coming up. She is entitled to 20 days plus Bank holidays but will have 27 plus Bh unless I ask her to work when we are not around. I feel that we should be counting the axtra hours as hours in lieu.

What is every ones view. Am I being fair to her. Is it a reasonable job ?

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eleusis · 21/09/2007 12:10

Oh, that's great. I'm glad it's all calm and everyone is happy in the mummypoppins household.

Now let's see... what kind of free legal advice might I like???

Neverenough · 20/09/2007 22:28

That sounds excellent Mummypoppins and means you did exactly the right thing in raising it-otherwise you'd still be simmering quietly and resenting her.
We always stress so much about things-communication is the key(she says who does exactly the same .......)

Original poster
mummypoppins · 20/09/2007 15:03

Im a private client lawyer so wills tax probate care of the elderly trusts all that sort of thing . But my firm is a full service law firm ( apart from Criminal law ) so anything really.

Thanks Fridays child. Its really hard isnt it but we had a live in nanny so that we could be flexible and I dont know about in your case but my nanny drops the children at school at 8.30am and doesnt pick them up until 3.30 yet she is paid as well as a nanny who has preschoolers all day so i think a bit of flexibilty when we need it is not unreasonable.

Why do we do it eh...........its hard enough being a working mother as it is especially in the law and I reckon my husband is abraord for a quarter of the working year!

OP posts:
fridayschild · 20/09/2007 13:49

Bit late to this thread here, also a solicitor in private practice with a DH who works abroad from time to time. Hope I'm not too late to say something halfway useful.

We try very hard to be flexible to our nanny because about once or twice a year when DH is away I need to ring her at 6pm to say AAARGH I cannot get home on time and cannot tell you when I will be back. And all the days holiday over the contractual entitlement, the complete freedom on playdates, time off to go to the hospital with her DH, the odd day sick on full pay not SSP, all those things are for the nanny's benefit and generally at her request with no tally kept. I think you just need to be so terribly focussed about what matters to you in terms of flexibility, and what does not.

And FWIW, I would not agree 4 weeks off for an Aussie nanny. I employ plenty of antipodeans here, and they never take more than 3 weeks to go home. When we had an Aussie, DH did a week with the kids, we had a week with the family together, and I did a week with the kids.

Pickie · 20/09/2007 13:35

good! Really pleased for you. What I forgot to say is I think a lot of nannies (ours cetainly) did was play on the guilt aspect of you not being there. And they make it come across as being a favour whilst it is their job!

Anyway glad it is all sorted mummypoppins!

BTW Are you specialized in competition law?

bossykate · 20/09/2007 13:00

crikey, mummyp, you may regret posting that! btw, what is your specialism?

glad the chat went well.

Original poster
mummypoppins · 20/09/2007 09:29

so Mummy Poppins slinks back to the thread to thank all you lovely people for your support even the ones that didnt agree with me ( LOL ) to report that Nanny was as happy as larry when I got back last night...........more than happy to cover late evenings for an hour or so ( she only sits and watches Dr WHo with the children ) and we have agreed that if it is a true babysit then she will be paid or have time off in lieu.

Not sure whether she has done a bit of job hunting and realised that she is not badly off or what but all is now calm in our household. DC's bathed and happy when I got back.........meal in the fridge for me etc. BLISS.

On this basis of course I am not unhappy that she will have more holiday etc.

It is all about give and take and getting what you need out of the relationship.She needs time for study and a car and I need some flexibilty during the week when my DH is away so I can go out to work to provide all these things for her!

Sometimes however I think it is good to have these little wobbles.........It sends both parties back to their own corners to count their blessings. I would not want her to leave because when I walk out the door in the morning I know that my children will be safe happy and well looked after.

She knows that we will be generous and treat her well in return.

I cant thank you enough for all your support over the last few days. I will try and look in as often as I can and return the favours..........please feel free to CAT me any of you for legal advice at anytime...On the house!

xxxx

OP posts:
penny50 · 19/09/2007 20:48

Is she taking the mickey?!?!?! I don't think she realises just how lucky she is to have you as her employer. not many employers would even have the decensy to ask if ok, and give a choice of doing or not. Blimey 4 extra hrs in return for car, own place with use of pool etc, holidays, unlimited money, and most of all your absolute trust by sounds of it.
I would say your being more than fair and completely reasonable.
As a nanny myself, I have had, luckily one okish family, who were pleasant enough but if they decided they didnt need me wouldn't let me know until last minute and that was without pay, and with no payrises over the course of employment (2 yrs)! My present employer (5 yrs) however is much better, more reasonable and also very flexible. The children who have all grown to be teens now are also a delight to be around. I was very fortunate to have found them and will be sad to be finishing up in nov when they emmigrate to india!
SOOOOO, knowing how things can work out i'd say you should put her in her place and if she doesnt like it, well like S88AHG said, you'd no doubt have a line of more gratious nannys queueing down the garden path, me included!!!!! good luck

paros · 19/09/2007 19:53

sorry I havnt read the thread . I am a nanny of 24 years experience and I think she is taking the mick . Surley it is a case of give and take , She really is a silly woman to not see when she is well off . And as an after thought if she needed time off because she was tired from looking after the kids what the dickens does she think mums do , make the kids vanish into thin air when they are tired . When my boss is going to be late home , I work 815 to 7 15 . I look after 2 kids and I have my own . I dont ask for overtime because I know she would rather be at home with her kids than working and usually its only half an hour . She is so good to me in other ways like you sre to her that she really should see the wood for the trees . I am sure some one would bite your arm off for the job if she does leave . Best of luck .

Neverenough · 19/09/2007 19:44

NannyL, just wanted to clarify the holiday thing: If we're away in the summer for 2 weeks, that's my nanny's holiday too.I don't expect her to work at all. She gets another 2 weeks of her choice and we do bust a gut to allow her to have them when she wants.
But if we're away and it's not her official holiday-then yes I do expect her to do the noncontact jobs that she usually does-as I've said elsewhere. I think that's normal.

NannyL · 19/09/2007 19:38

She took holiday because "she said she was tired looking after the children all day long."

Completely agree with frannikin!

Also what about mums who look after their children 24/7 and are up half the night as well with their babies / toddlers

Anna8888 · 19/09/2007 19:36

Yes, that's basically the point I wanted to make - I think that it is often really hard for nannies living away from their home countries to have much of a personal life at all (even if their material life is very comfortable) and so the month off, while it may seem like an unimaginable luxury to most of us, is necessary and justifiable for them in order to maintain their family relationships. Nannies need their own friends and families too .

frannikin · 19/09/2007 19:32

She took holiday because "she said she was tired looking after the children all day long."

I'm sorry, but she's a nanny with 20 years experience, right? Isn't that what we do - look after children all day long? What about all the FT nannies with a baby and a toddler all day every day?

You've got to be kidding....

NannyL · 19/09/2007 18:41

mummypoppins

can read whole post! Just want to make it clear that IMO you do seem like a very nice kind reaosnable employer!

Also in terms of working while you are away, as a nanny i would be really unimpressed to be expected to work while the whole family were away... I mean im a nanny,... i look after children lol

Saying that i manage to squeeze all my nursary duties into my contracted hours...

saying that in the summer my bosses went on holiday for a week. (Im a daily nanny by the way) In the 2 weeks before their holiday they had intruders TWICE (they have a gate alarm so my daddyboss herd the alarm go at random times and found intruders in their garden, then later those evening the nighbours were burgled)
During my week off i was having my bathroom done and it worked out i had no bath and no toilet for the same week.
Therefore my bosses asked if i wanted to stay at theirs (as an extra deterrent for intruders etc and the hosue looked lived in) but it also suited me as living in a hosue with no loo is a complete nightmare!

While i was there i just could not resist having a massive sort out of all the kids clothes, and the entire playroom, sorted out all the books and every toy box and found every piece of every toy and put it all back in the correct places! Also washed all the coats / hats / gloves /fleeces and things like the cosy toes for the buggy!... then there was a massive problem with the burglar alarm, so i sorted that out, liased with the police and stayed in for the alarm people to come and sort the problem!

This was all during my week holiday chosen by them! But i did it because I was there and I wanted to do it

Original poster
mummypoppins · 19/09/2007 17:53

I think it is difficult for live in Nannies. We have tried to introduce ours to people. We have even paid for a babysitter on a saturday night and taken her out with us as she is similar age...........makes it even harder then when the relationship is a little wobbly!

OP posts:
Neverenough · 19/09/2007 15:50

Sorry Anna8888, I misunderstood the emphasis of your post-that sounds quite different from most nannies here, who work reasonably long hours but most will have weekends off and most evenings.I do think still though that Mummypoppins shouldn't feel obliged to agree to a month's holiday for her nanny if it is going to prove difficult and expensive to provide cover.Her T and C are very different to that of the nannies you describe in paris.

Anna8888 · 19/09/2007 15:36

neverenough - I don't think that is quite comparable. Most nannies here in Paris live in (like the OP's nanny) and have zero personal life, week in, week out, except for the occasional outing with other nannies. So basically the month off is in lieu of personal life the rest of the time.

NHS employees (however lowly) can still go home to their families at the end of the day.

Neverenough · 19/09/2007 15:32

My mind is just boggling at the thought of all the overseas employees who work for the NHS taking a month off every year to go home at the NHS' expense-a lot of them are in low paid ,no prospects work as well!

Actually, in Australia, there is a thing called long service leave-every 7 years you get 3 months off on full pay or 6 months on half pay if you work in the public sector.The origin of this was to enable you to go back to visit your family in the old country. Nice perk-but it's every 7 years not every year!

Original poster
mummypoppins · 19/09/2007 15:29

I dont disagree with you Anna but my nanny doesnt want to be a nanny for ever as she is doing a 4 year course over here and therefore wanted a cushy job that she could combine with study which is what we gave her.

Even though my children are at school all day she doesnt do any cleaning apart from wiping round the kitchen

I think the bottom line is we have a our wires crossed and we need to uncross them to get this sorted.

OP posts:
Anna8888 · 19/09/2007 15:20

To the OP - on the month off - all the nanny employers I know here in Paris expect to give their nannies from far off lands a month's paid holiday (with flights) every year to go and visit their families. Admittedly the pay and conditions of the nannies is nothing like as cushy as those you give your nanny.

But I still tend to think that nannying is a job with no prospects that imposes severe limitations on an employee's personal life, and so it does have to have other perks - like fixed hours, paid overtime and a month off

Original poster
mummypoppins · 19/09/2007 15:09

You see as she has only just asked after 9 months I thought she was happy with the odd hour here and there too and I think thats where the problem lies. I felt I was giving her perks etc and she was happy to be flexible but may be she thinks she is being taken for a ride so I will have to see what she says when she I get home. We have once asked her to work at the weekends during the day and I paid her £10 ph cash so in reality more. I am not mean far from it. I spent £200 on her for her birthday fgs!

Its easy to take advantage of people I know but I dont feel we have so I need to understand that If I am going to be charged £10 per hour to sit with a book in the playroom watching TV ( which is what she does if she ever works over even if the playroom needs tidying ) exactly what I will get back when we are on holiday and she has used up her holiday entitlement doing other things.

If she insists on charging me there is nothing I can do about it as her contract does not allow me to pay her as time in lieu ( why oh why didnt I think about this !!!! ). But she will find herself just doing her contractual hours and I will get my mother to cover or Sophie the babysitter across the road who is very sweet and is delighted with a fiver an hour.In addition of course I will not be so keen to pay her 2 weeks early when she is going on holiday or say her mother can pitch up and stay!

And no neverenough I could not take a month off in a million years. I might get my 2 week family holiday if its school holidays but otherwise I will have to get a temp nanny at huge expense.

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Neverenough · 19/09/2007 14:59

Yes, Anchovy, I should have said that usually one of us is home within half an hour of her finish time-if not, we phone her and let her know and would definitely pay her for longer-although she has refused payment in the past and it happens rarely.
If I plan ahead and arrange it with her then we either agree payment or time off in lieu.

I do have to regularly do a check that we are being fair to her-I do rubbish hours on the days I work but am remunerated and am my own boss-she isn't.

Anchovy · 19/09/2007 14:45

OK - another lawyer weighing in.

Can't answer all of these points, but I think basically you are expecting to set off the extras against the minuses and she is not. And I can understand where you are both coming from.

I do pay my nanny for overtime (and it does work out at more than £10 an hour) but I did make it clear right at the beginning that she would have to do it if we were both stuck work-wise. So in my position it seems unfair to say that she has no alternative but to do it and then not pay her or pay her at less or not much more than her hourly rate. What I did say, however, was that overtime only kicked in after half an hour, so basically if one of us is running late/stuck on a train, that all comes out in the wash with the times she goes early when we are back early. So I have a sort of built in buffer, which we are both happy with.

Basically I use the model of how our PAs at work are paid - my nanny is coming in for a Saturday afternoon to help at DDs party and I am paying her at time and a half for that (which is what we would do for a PA on a Saturday afternoon).

I think part of the problem is that because we have to cover everything - and work crappy hours with no additional obvious remuneration - then it is easy to think everyone should. And my children and my nanny all adore each other so it is easy to forget it is a business arrangement. But I think it works best (for me) when I remember that's that is what it is.

Neverenough · 19/09/2007 14:42

Mummypoppins would you be able to get a month off easily from work? I know neither of us would! And how would you cover it? Would you pay her for the whole time?

Yes we do get long holidays-I get 6 weeks and DH gets the same I think. So we each keep a week or so up our sleeves to cover her leave.

Her finish time is 7.30pm but we don't pay her overtime as we are generous in other ways and I discussed all this with her when she started and established that she was happy with that. I don't keep a detailed log of hours under/over worked but I do keep a tally in my head so I know we are not taking advantage-she is happy with that though I know another nanny not be. But then we are not strict about 10 -15 mins at the end of the day because she is often a bit late too(always in fact) so we built that into the day too!

Original poster
mummypoppins · 19/09/2007 14:30

I have no issue at all with sickness etc....she has had a couple of times whe she was rough and still cam to work but of course because she has great flexibilty once the children are dropped off at school she has on a number of accasions come home to bed and left her other chores until another day. Which is abs fine by me.

So if you need your nanny to work over ie past 7pm or whatever her normal finishing time is do you always pay overtime or is there give and take because she gets more holiday ( as drs you get long hols.........half my family are Consultants ! )

We would prob never expect her to work Christmas because at least one of us doesnt have too so that must be a perk. In addition she has also said that in 2 years she will go home for a month as she is an aussie so I will have to plan round that if she is still here and of course I wouldnt dream of saying no because I think that would be unfair of me.

OP posts: