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Original poster

Are my employers being unfair?

61 replies

JonasRose · 10/05/2016 23:53

Hi everyone! I'm new to this so please bare with.. I've been a nanny to two lovely young boys for the past year and have got along well with the parents. I work 50 hours a week, although most weeks I end up staying late and bite my tongue every time without fail.
In September 2015 my dear Nan whom I was incredibly close to past away at the grand age of 89.. I was distraught by this and told my employers I needed some time to myself. Not including the day she passed away, I was given one day off paid. I suggested I would have liked more time but they went on about alternative childcare and their workloads to the point where I felt too bad to not come in. With bloodshot and puffy eyes I came in.

I have been ill over the year for just 4 days, (2 days on 2 different occasions) where I was hospitalised, and 3 days with a fractured ankle after which I ended up coming in on crutches for weeks with no complaints.

This Monday just gone my only cousin just 26 years of age passed away unexpectedly when some surgery went wrong and caused a horrendous infection in her body and blood. I was off on Monday at the hospital with my family and after she past away I let my employers know I needed some time to myself, to which they replied "Sorry for your loss. See you Wednesday." I was shocked and didn't reply until Tuesday afternoon when I informed them I was not ready just yet to come back so soon and apologised repeatedly for the inconvenience.. After this I received a long paragraph stating money difficulties in paying me for days off and paying for alternative childcare and that they would no longer be paying for any bereavement days off and no more SSP. Once again they also made a point of their workloads and now that I need to be on Thursday.

My sister is a nanny and her family have been much more accommodating and understanding. I suppose a second opinion is what I'm after. Thanks in advance!

OP posts:
Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 11:11

Hi everyone!

Unable to find if I can edit the OP but I just wanted to clear something up very quickly..
This post wasn't in regards to not being paid for my time off from now on, nor was it to suggest I should be paid for any time off. I would never and have never asked for SSP or paid time off for family death.

My point in this is just to gather opinions on whether I should be really be made to feel so bad on the occasions where I was hospitalised and right when someone has just passed away. I feel bad enough for not being there in the first place.Sad

I would just like a little more understanding for the times I have had for grieving and being in hospital. I would much rather be at work then stuck on a ward so poorly or grieving a loved one. It's no one's fault here but just confused on how we should all deal with it. Thanks!

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Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 10:54

TheClacksAreDown -

Thanks for your message.

You're right in saying I need to grow a spine, I'm fully aware of this and have been told numerous times by others I should speak up when unhappy with something instead of letting things slide.

I'm not asking for paid time off, never would I dream of it but if I suddenly turned around and said "actually ill be in tomorrow because you're not going to pay me anymore" it would be a bit fake wouldn't it? My sadness over my cousins death will not disappear if they threaten to not pay me for the time off and if it did then surely I wasn't really grieving in the first place? At such a sad time I could care less about the money. I'm accepting of them giving the alt. Childcarer all pay and leaving me out completely.

Not everyone deals with loss the same way, we are all different and I feel as though Im constantly apologising for needing time to grieve or even for when I was hospitalised.. This is not about the money, it's just about the way I'm made to feel when I've had time off.
When I was in hospital I was scared to contact them to let them know I wouldn't be able to make it in to work and I don't think that's very fair. I'd never take time off for a cold or silly things, it's only when I physically have been incapable of working.

Maybe I am a bit sneery about DB, I can admit that. But I would be just the same if I worked in a busy office somewhere and my boss didn't do much all day. It can be disheartening. I like to feel needed in my job and with DB capable of taking care of his kids more frequently then not I feel a bit like furniture.

Also, would just like to point out that I'm not a new nanny. I have been with this family for a year but this is not my first position and I completely understand my working consistently is vital.

Thanks again, I too hope things are worked out.Smile

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Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 10:19

Gazelda -

I know you're not having a go, you've been very helpful throughout this thread in fact and thank you for that.Smile Some people have not been as helpful (or nice) which is unfortunate.

I had 2 days off on the day of and day after my Nans death and one for the funeral which they had plenty of warning for and were happy to find alternative care. I've had the day of my cousins death off (Monday) and yesterday Tuesday. Her funeral is set to be next Friday but as they have said anymore time off (in general) will not be paid for and that is fine. I do completely understand the time off paid for previously is above the norm and out of their own kindness and I am so grateful for this. I would never ask nor expect it to be paid time off even when I was in hospital.

While I was in hospital unfortunately I did get many texts saying that they're sorry I'm unwell but it's causing them massive inconveniences with money and childcare. I felt awful. At one point while I was sleeping, DB found my partner on a social media website by searching for me and asked him if he could get me to reply to the texts they had sent. I found this very inappropriate.

I have requested holiday in total 3 times but only mentioned December as they said that was due to the workload. Other times have been due to either not finding alt. childcare or them saying "we can't really work around that date unfortunately." I have always said it's not a problem.

Just feeling a bit like they think I purposely want time off to be in hospital or to grieve. I'd definitely rather be at work then to have had any of this happen!

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TheClacksAreDown · 11/05/2016 10:18

There are various issues here.

On holiday and working late if that is a problem then in the nicest possible way you need to grow a spine to sit down and have a sensible conversation. There are certain times in the year where it would be very hard to give our nanny leave but that doesn't mean if I was suddenly asked for a week on a months notice I could do it. But you do need to be able to find times and dates when you can.

I don't think they have been that unreasonable around bereavements to be frank. 3 days for a cousin is quite a bit. Plus a few days for your grandmother and 7 days off sick. I'd be grinding my teeth if I'd had to cover that often at short notice plus paying for 2x childcare Costs. And you will often seen posts on here about nannies having quite a bit of leave and people being advised to stop paying discretionary sick pay to make the nanny think about it more. If my nanny had taken 3 days for bereavement for a cousin and then wanted more by way of annual leave I'd have to look carefully at whether that was doable. And I've brought in temp nannies before now to facilitate my nanny going to funerals etc in the past. Tbh if one of my team at work was asking for more time off for a cousin it would also be something I'd be a bit surprised at.

To be really blunt you sound a bit sneery about the dad. I suspect his workload fluctuates and so he some quiet periods. In which case it is none of your concern if he grabs some sleep and I can understand wanting to see his kids when he has time. If the music is bothering you have a polite word at the time. Ultimately if this is not a job you want then you should look to move on.

The fact that dad WFH seems to have given you the view that they could be much more flexible that they are. I suspect his job is more pressured than you understand. And I'm not convinced from your posts that you have truly grasped (newish nannies often haven't) that your working consistently is vital to them being able to work and why you pay a premium for a nanny. You're not one of 100 people on a production line who can just be swapped in and out.

Hope you get things worked out.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 09:57

BlueStringPudding -

Thanks for your reply. This is really very helpful.
I have always given more notice than they initially said they required and what was stated in my contract. I have always gone by what is in my contract and what I was told when I took the job offer.
As for holiday I was told I have 10 days off of my own and they have 10 in which they are entitled to take at any time and will pay me in full. They even made a point in saying they know how expensive non termtime holidays can be and understand me wanting to take time off during term time but unfortunately it seems as everything I was told upon offer has never really been very true.

I am unsure at the moment where I want to go with staying or leaving but I think a chat is due either way. I love the boys and will be sad to leave them.

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ThroughThickAndThin01 · 11/05/2016 09:57

I think you're being blinkered by the fact that the dad works from home. So he could easily do your job for you.

But I still don't think your employer has been unfair. Quite generous, in fact.

It's not your fault you've been hospitalised and had bereavements, but neither is it theirs.

Sort out until staying until the early hours etc, if it doesn't suit you

Gazelda · 11/05/2016 09:54

OP, if they are reasonable people, then I'm sure they hold no grudge about paying you for when you were in hospital.

I think it's the time you've had off for bereavements that is the issue. You don't seem to get that the 5 days you've had off paid (if I'm understanding your original post correctly) is above the norm for indirect relatives' deaths. BTW, did this include funerals, or is that extra time you've needed off?

Apart from the leave requested for December, how many times have they refused you holiday? Have they actually said you can't have any, or are you just 'getting that feeling'?

I'm not trying to have a go at you, I'm just trying to understand the full picture and offer advice how you can move forward and all be happy with the arrangements.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 09:49

Gazelda -

I do realise this completely and have apologised on the occasions when I was hospitalised. But unfortunately I could do nothing about this and wasn't something I chose or even wanted to happen. I would much rather be at work then ill in hospital.
I have never asked for SSP and wouldn't even dream of it, I was more than appreciative when they gave this to me whilst in hospital. On my Nans death, I had one day off and they payed this which I was also appreciative of.

I do not want anymore than I am already given. I am so thankful for my employers and we get along well. I am merely trying to ask for advice on whether my not being allowed holiday/annual leave because of my time off for sickness and deaths is reasonable and whether I should be made to feel bad when I am lying in a hospital bed or dealing with a loss.

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BlueStringPudding · 11/05/2016 09:45

I think your relationship with your employer has started to break down with the result that you are both becoming less flexible with each other rather than more flexible. You need to decide if you want to stay in this job or find another one.

If you do want to stay in this job, then work out your leave entitlement for the year and plan out when you would like to take it. Then sit down with your employer - either of them - and take them through roughly when you'd like the holiday, and say that you know they'll need time to think about it and discuss it with each other.

So for example between Christmas and New Year is a reasonable request, and is quite far out. It may not be possible if their work is particularly busy then, but asking now means they have time to look at other ways of enabling you to have that time off. If not, at least you know now.

Likewise, if you want a week over the summer at all, you need to have that conversation now. If they have a summer holiday planned, then it would be sensible for you to have the same weeks off, and making that suggestion will help build bridges.

It's unlikely that they will want you to have any other time off over the summer, so bear that in mind and think about going away in June or September instead when the children are in school.

When discussing leave, you could also indicate that you assume the time taken off for bereavement was part of your annual leave (assuming they paid you as normal for it?). If you do this, then I think they will relax a bit more, and will see that you are trying to be flexible and helpful to them.

Even a month's notice for a week's holiday is short - so as others have said, try give much more notice if you can. If you do, and then want holiday for say a day at 2 weeks' notice, they will probably be much more willing to try and accommodate it.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 09:38

MrsFogi -
I am not asking for paid leave whilst I grieve, when I ask if they are being unfair I mean in terms of telling me when I should be back without giving me an option of annual leave.

I use these points to back myself up in terms of the fact I have been denied holiday regularly all with longer than 1 months notice which is stated in my contact. I have been appreciative when hospitalised and when my nan passed away for the time I had off (although there's nothing I could have done being in hospital) and have thanked them many times. I do a lot of over time and babysitting till early hours of the morning on Fridays and weekends sometimes.
I guess I would just like a bit of give and take and don't feel as though I should be made to feel bad for wanting time off, whether that be for a death or going away on holiday.

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ThroughThickAndThin01 · 11/05/2016 09:34

I'm with your employer too.

Many companies don't allow holidays at certain times.

The fact that sometimes you don't have much to do because the dad is around is irrelevant.

Four days off in a year for sick leave sounds a lot to me.

You need to take any other time off as annual leave.

Gazelda · 11/05/2016 09:34

I'm sorry for the rough time you've had recently. Your cousin's death must have been a particular shock.

But surely you realise that as an employee you have responsibilities. If you needed longer to deal with the initial shock of grief, you should have let them know ASAP, and asked if you could take it as holiday or unpaid leave. You don't appear to have offered this compromise. But to be honest, they would have been within their rights to refuse.

It is costing them extra to cover your absences, I don't think it's unreasonable to remind you of this. Wouldn't you feel a bit peeved if you suddenly got landed with a £79 expense you weren't expecting?

They have been compassionate and generous, and from their perspective you seem to want more.

And your holiday leave - you don't seem to have asked for any other than what you asked for in December. While they owe you leave, they are probably waiting for you to ask for it! I can see fault on both sides here.

The dad's activities during the day - his business, not yours. If they are disruptive then you need to speak up.

I think this mainly boils down to communication. An honest appraisal would be very useful - put your points across without emotion and give them chance to respond.

Being an employee is a 2-way relationship.

Good luck.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 09:31

Twaathecatthatdidit -

I find your comment quite hurtful. Maybe I am being defensive but I asked for some advice on this post, not to be told I am the reason you would be put off having a nanny.. I would neve take time off for anything unreasonable, I was in hospital on 2 occasions and the other 2 are family deaths. These things happen in life to anyone. I shouldn't be deemed as unreliable when someone in my family dies and I need a day to pull myself together, nor should I when I am sat in a hospital ward. I work very hard and adore the 2 boys I care for and we are incredibly close. They are safe and happy in my care. I have grown to love them and will be very sad to leave when the day comes.

Illness and death are unexpected, I cannot inform my employers of who may pass away or when I will be ill. It's life. You will find things can happen to anyone at any point.. Even a nanny that has never taken a day off in her life before.
Good luck in your search for childcare.

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MrsFogi · 11/05/2016 09:18

No I'm afraid I'm with your employer here - you have had a significant amount of sickness, whilst it may feel tough you should be taking annual leave if you want time to yourself after a bereavement for an indirect family member, you seem to be look for points to back up your point of view (whether the father works at home, what he does whilst you are working, distance of local childminder are all irrelevant) they are paying you to do a job and in return expect a reliable and non-judgemental nanny.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 09:17

MadHattersWineParty -

They don't have any holiday booked as of yet.
5 months notice and still denied must have left you feeling very disheartened! If they had told me there would be months when I couldn't take holiday I would completely understand but it just seems like my time off has stopped me from being allowed my holiday.
I admit I don't have much of a backbone and sometimes I do just smile and say "no problem."
The smallest child is 3 years old and he is with me all day, (he doesn't nap) so there's no time really.

I will check my contract in regards to Appraisals but MB is hardly ever around so I'm unsure when they'd even find the time for that either.

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Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 09:10

YoingGirlGrowingOld -
Thanks for your comment, and thank you for shining some light on both perspectives. I appreciate it a lot.

In November I gave over a months notice for the holiday I wanted to take in December. I was denied of this. I had no previous knowledge that there would be months that their workload left me unable to take my time off. This I found disheartening.

I understand my time off leaves them in the lurch, as you said it is not my fault when I am ill but I do always show appreciation without fail and I've felt awful when I have been off. - I was hospitalised twice for dehydration once and food poisoning another, I felt awful for letting them down but I do feel as though I shouldn't be made to feel awful for when I am unwell.

Also, they do have alternative childcare who is a family friend that is a childminder that lives on the same road as them. They told me yesterday they pay £79 a day for alternative childcare and that is actually more than they pay me net. I didn't ask for figures, I was thrown them when I asked for one more day off.

I'm just trying to find a balance and figure out if I'm wrong for feeling this way or if I wouldn't be the only one.
Hope to hear from you again Smile

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Twasthecatthatdidit · 11/05/2016 09:08

12 days at very short notice in one year is a hell of a lot. It really is a very unfortunate run of luck for you, but it would be an absolute disaster for us if we had such an unreliable nanny. I'm considering getting a nanny but a story like this would really put me off. I'm very sorry for your losses though. I can see where they're coming from though

MadHattersWineParty · 11/05/2016 09:05

Holiday is a legal requirement- they need to sort that and try and compromise a time where it could fall in with their own annual leave- so they're not paying you and a temp or whatever. They are surely taking holiday at some point during the year, at the very least they need to plan for it to coincide with when you can have your own time off. I couldn't take time off in June even though I asked in January. Five months notice! Frustrating but I was given the holiday at another time.

MadHattersWineParty · 11/05/2016 09:01

The shared-care problems you're having are a separate issue.

It doesn't sound like you're happy in the job overall. Do you have any sort of appraisal? They probably have things they'd like to raise too and it can be tricky to arrange a time to chat if the kids are usually around.

The problem is a nanny is needed to be absolutely reliable. I know we're human and sometimes life doesn't work out that way. But there's no escaping the fact that if we don't/can't turn up for work without being able to give much notice, that can cause quite a few problems for our employers. Are both the kids at school? Ie, do you get downtime during the day where you can have a bit of quiet reflection after your recent loss?

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 08:59

MadHattersWineParty -
Thanks so much for your comment, I really appreciate it.
It is completely at their discretion of course and this is stated in my contact. It is not about the money for me, I am happy to take this time unpaid but the text I was sent stated "if you don't come in after today were not paying you and we're not obliged to." - This to me feels like a threat in hopes of me turning around and saying that I've changed my mind and will be in. With or without pay, I have just lost someone very close to me and need my time. We all deal with loss differently.

As with holiday, now they are saying they can't afford alternative childcare and to pay me at the same time I'm not sure how I will even take holiday? Any suggestions?

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Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 08:50

IHOPEYOUSTEPONALEGOPIECE -
Thanks for your comment.
On various occasions DB has played with the children, come along to activities and even cooked at points along with doing school run everyday. I'm sorry but I didn't sign up for a shared charge role and I like to feel needed in my job just as I'm sure most people do.
I am not asking for paid time off, nor have I ever asked for it. All I was trying to explain is that I would have liked to have been able to take some time to get my head around things before returning. I'm not asking for anything unreasonable in my opinion. It would have been nice to have been spoken to with a bit of compassion and not have been hit with all their financial difficulties for when I am not around.

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YoungGirlGrowingOld · 11/05/2016 08:50

Sorry for your loss but I agree that your employers don't sound U. 7 days off sick (I think?) over a year is rather a lot. It's more than double the number of days I have taken in the last 5 years, for example. Of course you can't help being ill, but with the bereavement time added in they may just be getting a bit exasperated.

It's much easier for them to plan for your holidays if you give them plenty of notice. They may be planning to cover that with their own AL so I think you should try to see a month's notice as a minimum really. It will be costing them an awful lot to arrange last minute childcare - it's not your "problem" but I think showing some appreciation of this would go a long way towards creating more goodwill.

At the end of the day, your job is to look after their kids and they are left up shit creek every time you don't show up for work. However I do think you should speak to them about booking holidays and agree a process for that - they don't seem to be making sure that you actually take your leave, which any decent employer should do.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 08:41

ChablisTyrant -
I do appreciate your comment in saying it is none of my business but when I am in your home 50 hours a week I would feel more understanding about not being allowed to take holiday if things were otherwise. There have been times where I've hardly been needed for the whole day as the Dad comes and plays with the kids, does the school pick up and drop offs and has even cooked at points.
Feeling like Im not being allowed to take time off (unpaid even) for anything and being denied holiday seems unfair to me.
Thanks for your comment.

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MadHattersWineParty · 11/05/2016 08:34

Ffs autocorrect. I mean have a quiet day with the children of I was feeling delicate after a family loss.

Original poster
JonasRose · 11/05/2016 08:34

AndTakeYourPenguinWithYou -
I'm sorry you feel this way but I can assure you I am very professional about my job and have never disagreed or caused any problems in this position..
It has deemed very difficult to take any holiday and it seems as though I am expected to not take holiday anymore because of the time I have had off for being in hospital.

I never once said I was entitled to bereavement pay for extended family members and I do understand any pay they have given me beforehand is down to pure kindness.
It is a hard time right now for me and all I would have liked was a little understanding in having some time to get my head around things rather then be rushed back into work and I do feel as though I'm being forced.
Also, to your comment about alternative childcare costs I'm not sure what you meant here but I have never said anything about this, it is my employers that are telling me they cannot afford to pay myself and alternative on days I am off from now on. Which again relates back to taking holiday as they will need to find alternative.
Thanks.

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