Childminder - pay, holiday & sick leave questions...

A live out nanny in central London will be closer to £30k+ all in unless v inexperienced. The hourly rate is about £9-10 or more [and you are in Zone 1 which makes their travel in much more expensive] and it's usually a 50 hour week for most at 8-6. It's the hours rather than the hourly rate as such. Then NI on top, payroll and insurance costs and now a pension. Plus you can no longer claim back sick pay.

I am in Zone 2 London and have recently moved to an Ofsted childminder arrangement. £50 a day 8-6, and £25 a day for school wraparounds 3-6. Food is included but not nappies/wipes etc. and day trips/activities during holidays are extra. We don't pay for BH or her holidays at all. If she is available to work and we are away or take the children out of her care on a half day or whatever, we will pay her.
She will take 5 weeks unpaid holiday per annum but that's her choice. Perhaps I am getting an extremely good deal but I don't think so as I checked out the local rates. She is self employed and when she is not working, I will have to find and pay for an alternative unless we only take our own holidays when it suits her.

If you are on maternity leave now, I would use the time to renegotiate your contract, while you have the leverage of being able to look after your oldest child and look for an alternative. I certainly wouldn't wait until your last month or two when you would potentially be trying to settle in two children somewhere else.

as cm is se she can dictate her 'demands' and the parent agree to them, which you have so no hmrc wont care

tho what she wants seems to be insane

sure you could 1) find a cheaper cm who didnt charge holidays of hers and bank hols 2) a nwoc to work for you

Surely she is self-employed so why are you paying her holiday pay?

Oh blimey so sorry! That was supposed to be a new post.

Sorry op.

Hi fellow cms,

Expecting my grandchild to join the setting for 3 full days next year. I am Ofsted registered so they can claim child care discounts. Do I have to do obs/planning on my own grandchild like I do on the other mindees? Would Ofsted expect that or not?

As a child minder, I don't charge holidays, sick days, and if the parents give me sufficient notice I don't charge if they are taking a half day off, and I am flexible if they want extra days, late evenings, etc. I don't charge nearly as much as your CM but we live in East London. I am also rated outstanding. I would never dream of parents paying my sick days, or Christmas and bank holidays. I think that your CM's contract needs renegotiating.

I think hmrc would be happy that the fact that the cm is setting the terms and stating when she's available and how much she'll charge as confirmation that she's not an employee.

I think it would be interesting to run this contract past hmrc and see what their views are, if there is any risk that THEY would consider her your employee based on these terms. I know there are lots of ways to judge self employment but the way this contract is worded it seems she wants the best of both worlds.

We're in Essex so prices not comparable to London obviously.

We pay bank holidays, our holidays and when our child was ill. Childminder wasn't available between Christmas and New Year so we didn't pay. We also didn't pay for the childminder's holidays or when she was sick. We agreed with one minder to pay half price on our holidays for one week I think but this isn't necessarily the norm. All food, drinks, groups and trips were included but she did ask for spending money occasionally e.g., trip to the zoo.

It sounds to me like you're paying her for all the risk of being self-employed. You might as well pay a nanny and call the shots!

Think about the standard for an employee, 20 days holiday plus 8 bank holidays; not 28 days holiday plus bank holidays plus sick days. Quite frankly, if I had 8 days sick in a year, my employer would be monitoring my attendance until it improved.

Talk to your current childminder and ask what sort of new contract is she prepared to offer. I'd be inclined to give notice and look after your exisiting child at home whilst on maternity leave and look into a new provider for both children.

I don't understand how she can charge for BH if she doesn't even have your child on a Monday? Sounds extremely cheeky to me and I would certainly question it. I'm a CM and I don't actually charge for BH, as I'm not prepared to work them and I'm usually away in my caravan anyway!
I don't charge if I'm ill ( not had a day sickness in 16 years but I'm sure it will happen), or if I'm on holiday as my services aren't available.I do charge a sibling discount of a third.
However, as you know, she can charge what she likes....but I would definitely question the BH!

'Can you get a nanny for £18k in London??'

In a word, No.

A nanny share or NWOC could work out less than the childminder x2 though. It's worth looking at.

Costs wise, look at various funding schemes. Are you currently able to get childcare vouchers from your employer, from your partners employer, from both? If not then worth looking into though try to avoid being tied in to the system for too long, as a new system may start in 2017. Depending on your situation, that may be worth up to £1800 a year. Voucher savings Calculator

In 2017 tax-free childcare scheme is expected to start, no confirmed date as yet. With two working parents, two children in childcare, that could be worth up to £4000 per year (you pay in £8,000 per child and Government adds £2,000 per child). Full details of scheme not yet available but a brief overview is at: Gov.uk Tax Free Childcare

Nannynick has done some great calculations for you. Perhaps you could look at a nanny who brings her own child to you, as that might be less.

18,000 pa wage to nanny
4 days per week, no hours detail, will assume 40 hours per week.
Total yearly hours: 2080, so £8.65 ish an hour
If that is Gross wage then:
£1365 for employers NI.
If that is Net wage then (if 1060L taxcode)
Gross: £21940 (roughly)
Employers NI £1908
So the total cost, even adding on activities and mileage payments, could be lower or similar to £512x52 but won't by as low as £64 per day.
Would you get a nanny in Islington for 18,000... hard to know but probably not, though someone doing nanny work for the first time may accept that.

So in my view a nanny is likely to be a bit more than that but it may not be that much more than 2 children with this childminder at £64 per day, though it depends on the salary and on the other costs (heating, lighting, food, travel, outings, to name some of them).

With regard to discount it is always worth asking as you have been existing customers who presumably pay on time and don't mess her about she may do something for you. I have done so in the past for existing families especially as one was not far off school age so effectively would free up a full time space soon.

I would discuss the sick pay, she may have started charging as children in the past were brought sick so she caught it and had to close, I have heard of one lady who did this, not sure how it worked out for her. Again as she knows you and presumably you don't bring your child sick she may be willing to drop this part to keep your business. Especially if you are effectively bringing in new business.

So her holiday entitlement is 20 days and she hasn't used it all yet and in effect you haven't paid anybody else as other half has worked from home...what does she do with unused holiday? That means if she uses and charges all 20 days on a 4 day week the equivalent in non paid holidays would be around a 10% price rise...how does that 10% compare against what others charge and how happy you are with her?

What is stopping you booking the same time? Could you discuss the reason and see if she will agree to half the holiday being at the same time as you? I know my husband was self employed so in reality booking holiday was a last minute thing and even then he didn't always go there isn't much I could do about that other than suck it up and pay.

Can you get a nanny for £18k in London??

If you paid a Nanny a wage of 18,000 pa it would work out at £69 a day. And no drop offs and pick ups, no havi g to sort food todrop off.

We pay slightly more per hour for our cm (so a 9-6 day is £72). She's also in Islington, but that includes all food, activities, etc. (we provide nappies and wipes). But, as I said, she doesn't charge for her holidays or sick/off days so it balances out over the year...

A nanny might work out cheaper with two DC...?

Are you central london? That is incredibly expensive and doesnt even include lunch? What about snacks / tea ? Wipes? Activities?

Be cheaper overall to get a Nanny. At least they would prep meals.

Of course she should be charging for sick days: it's in the contract that the Op signed.

Makes me cross when I see posts laying down the law about what can and can't be charged. It's up to the individual childminder to charge what he or she feels is reasonable. It's up to each parent to sign up to those charges, to negotiate, or to find another childcarer.

If Monday is not your contracted day then you shouldnt be paying her a penny for BHs that fall on a Monday.

8 days sick is a lot and no, she shouldnt be charging for them.

How far in advance do you know her holidays? My CM gives the years leave in July of the year before (bar a couple of days she keeps back for emergency/last minute byt even they are given with at least 6 weeks notice). Can you have ypur AL the same time as her?

My CM charges for any leave we take, but not for any leave she takes so most of the parents tale leave at the same time to save money.

Ours doesn't offer a sibling discount, and I wouldn't expect one.

If you can make the holidays work and you like the cm then I'd just try to negotiate the sick days. Cms aren't nannies - they are freelance, not your employee. Therefore it's highly irregular to charge for sick days (or days when her kids are sick).