Childminder discipline

I'm objecting to the You will Eat This Do this because I Say So, school of parenting/child management.

Usually there are perfectly good reasons why children don't want to do things, or why they are being "defiant" on a particular matter.

If a child was in Reception, (a whole 2 years older) would you expect the teacher to put them outside the class for 40 minutes or stand against the wall, just because they were being defiant? That would be considered pretty draconian. Usually the child professional would come up with a better solution, and find out why the child didn't want to do something straightforward.

They will usually do what you want, if you pick your battles, reframe the problem, approach from a different angle. Just to insist they do something and stick to your guns ensures compliance but not cooperation or trust. Surely you want cooperation.

I remember one friend/acquaintance who was very hot on well behaved children who used to leave her 2 year old strapped in his highchair" until he ate his food". He didn't eat it, and she used to say, he is just so defiant. He went to school and continued to be defiant. By the time he was 10 she had completely changed her methods of dealing with him and got on much better with him . He was her 4th child, (4 under 6) and I suspect she thought she had to run her house like a military operation. But in the end that just did not work with him.

Thank you for the vote of confidence moogy

I might report you to OFSTED Gold.

I didn't think Gold had said anything offensive. Have I missed something or is it the usual you can't ever say anything other than all children are angels at all times. Saying anything else means you're a bad childcarer and the children in your care are miserable wretches being mentally abused.
I might report you to OFSTED Gold.

The thing is Gold mums read these forums not just nannies and child-minders

No really?

the way you talk about children in private says a lot.

I used the words 'push around'. You talk as I was calling him a brat or similar! I don't imagine that there is any experienced practitioner in existence that hasn't for a moment chosen a word which is slightly less sensitive than they might usually use, yourself included. To imply that this is a reflection on my practice is rather offensive to say the least.

Can I take the condescending tone to mean that you are a very highly qualified practitioner with many years of experience?

"Swan" I said I was unsympathetic to a child of that age who doesn't do as he's told. ( that's why my mindees and own dc are well behaved [big ggrin]
I doubt very much there's some underlying reason. 2 year olds can just be stroppy blighters at times! I've found over many years and lots of experience that the vast vast majority of the time the behaviour is because they're being defiant. Nothing wrong with that, all part of growing up, but pandering does not help instill good behaviour.

The thing is Gold mums read these forums not just nannies and child-minders and the way you talk about children in private says a lot.

Swanhildapirouetting well said!

i have read the whole thread, yesterday and today lol - know you arent the op, thats duffdaddy :)

thing is op/duff doesnt want cm to just take shoes off and cause a disruption/wrestling match, cm wants shoes off, child doesnt want shoes off, so only option is to wait for the child to take them off his self, or agree for cm to take them off, thus making him wait in hall. not joining in till he takes shoes off

i dont see that cm has done anything wrong - what else would she like cm to do?

Florence I concede that I could have chosen my words more sensitively and I would have done so if I'd been talking face to face with a parent. However the message is the same.

I think it is perfectly fair to assume that someone who criticises a childminder for allowing her child to sit for forty minutes until he was ready to cooperate but hasn't offered any alternative strategy, in all likelihood would have given in and let him have his own way.

He may take his shoes off at home but I'd bet my bottom dollar that he digs his heels in about other things. He'd be a very unusual toddler if he didn't.

my children took their shoes off from an early age. It was never an issue at all, in fact when they go to a house now, it is difficult to persuade them that they are meant to keep their shoes on!
I think moogy you sound most unsympathetic and I would not want you in charge of my children.
The child may have some obscure reason for wanting to keep his shoes on, maybe he hurt his toe last time he was in his socks, had a splinter, feels anxious about being told off, hates being manhandled, doesn't want to put his shoes in a certain place, doesn't like getting undressed. He needs to have a new spin put on the shoes off rule, so that he doesn't react in this way, or you need to find out why he doesn't like taking them off and come to some mutually satisfactory solution (I mean for child and childminder) Personally I think long drawn out standoffs are utterly unproductive and make EVERYONE miserable. And set you up for further "wilful defiance" along the line, if child doesn't feel listened to or understood.

Supernanny believed in involvement as well as rules and boundaries. The programme often edited out some of her child friendliness in favour of the Time out sequences.

You need to read the whole thread Blondes I'm not the OP.
OP hasn't said her son gets his own way at home. I think it is unfair to assume that he does to be honest. She said quote " My boy does take his shoes and jacket off in the house ".
I also understood what Gold meant but as she conceded it wasn't expressed in the best way.

Blondes, I understood what Gold said too, and it was absolutely right.

i agree with gold and children do know who they can push around/ to test/find the boundaries - i knew exactly what gold meant

sounds like at home op if her ds didnt want to do something, she would allow him the choice

what the cm is doing is treating op's ds the same as others, obv does make a diff whether shut in a hall with door closed or in hall door open, can see what is happening

it is the childs choice not to take shoes off

Indoor shoes mean to me a pump type shoe. Sometimes socks are not enough depends on the flooring etc. we have glazed tiled floors and a toddler would soon slip over.
Obviously yes depends on this childminder's setting.

Well, he has got a choice doesn't him?

I'm guessing he'll take his shoes off next time.

I wouldn't let him wear clean shoes, because they are still hard and will step on little fingers and possibly kick someone in the face while climbing. Socks or slipper socks are much softer.

A happy cheerful "you can come in when you're ready to take your shoes off" along with regular safety checks and a drink if necessary should be fine.

He's being wilful and defiant and needs to realise he has to follow rules.

I think I would prefer to think that he is testing the boundaries to see how they compare with those he is used to. He may have learned that by digging his heels in he can avoid some of the demands that are put on him. He is trying to get this new adult to do the same and discovering that she won't. He3 can only find this out by trial and error.

By remaining calm and firm, the childminder is allowing him to learn quickly and have a clear understanding of how the rules work in her setting. Once he realises that he can't make her give in he is very likely to stop pushing and accept the new format.

I think the cm is spot on. He's being wilful and defiant and needs to realise he has to follow rules.
He has the choice to join the others,he just needs to take his shoes off. If he is upset, I'd explain to him that if he does as he's told there's no need to stand in the hall. If he chooses to stand there by not doing as he's told then I'm afraid as a cm and with my own dc. I'd have no sympathy if he starts crying to try and get his own way.
And if the cm Has a no shoe rule I don't think shed take kindly to him having indoor shoes. They're still shoes!

Sorry disagree with the way you have worded this Gold. Some toddlers are just very wilful, they are not trying to push anyone around. What a horrid phrase. I am all for clear boundaries and personally try to be firm but kind.

Perhaps not the best way to word it, you are right. I, in common with the cast majority of childminders, do of course make sure I am kind as well as firm. You will see from my posts that I advocated ensuring that the child wasn't isolated and felt welcome to join in the play once his shoes were off.

A childminder who give a child firm, clear, reasonable boundaries is not being stubborn she is being professional. It is perfectly possible to establish boundaries while using a light, positive tone and being kind to the child.

The OP can't come up with a better plan, although I did ask if she'd shared her view that her DS would like to go outside with the childminder.

"children soon learn who they can push around"
Sorry disagree with the way you have worded this Gold. Some toddlers are just very wilful, they are not trying to push anyone around. What a horrid phrase. I am all for clear boundaries and personally try to be firm but kind.
As a nanny I recently cared for a little boy aged 18 months. He wouldn't eat anything new for his mum and they had terrible food battles. I realised that one day when I tried to get him to eat a certain food and he refused to eat any thing more on his plate. After that I was always careful to take my light hearted eat what you like approach and guess what he would always clear his plate and try new foods.

I think the worse battle are where both parties are as stubborn as one another.

I would not allow this little boy to wear his outdoor shoes inside either but would try to come up with a plan with his mum.

Maybe he doesn't get into battles with his mum.

Perhaps that's the case.

Perhaps the OP gives in and lets him do what he wants if he digs his heels in for long enough which is why he stuck it out for so long with the childminder.

In my opinion, as an experienced childminder, children soon learn who they can push around and who will give them firm clear boundaries. It takes very few episodes like the one the OP describes for children, even of this age, to adapt their behaviour to the approach of the new carer and things usually settle down very quickly.

Duffy says he takes his shoes of at home. Maybe he doesn't get into battles with his mum. Sometimes toddlers can clash with some adult and then a battle of wills begins. unfortunately we don't have child-minders take on this. Agree with Sebsmummy1 work out a strategy together and stick to it.

If he approach is cheerful and positive, she is regularly inviting him to take his shoes off and join in so he feels welcome, she's leaving the door open she he is supervised and doesn't feel isolated and she praises him then lets it go when he does take them off, she is doing a good job.

I do however feel that 40+ mins.. Is excessive and some alternative should and will be looked at if this continues.

40 minutes is excessive but he is choosing that length of time, not her. If you don't want her to take his shoes of without his permission, the only other alternative is to allow him to come in with them on and that wouldn't do anyone any favours.

It doesn't sound like you have a better alternative in mind. What would you do if he did this at home?

Do you mean he wants to go out in the garden. Does she allow the children free access to the garden? Have you suggested this to her?

I wouldn't want that to be happening regularly, but as a one off to prove a point then i would be fine with it.

Personally i think there are lots of methods that can be employed before you get to a stand off position, and both you and the CM should be working together to implement the same strategies. To my mind it is totally pointless if you allow him at home to get his own way and pander to tantrums etc if your CM is trying to make a point by making him stand in her hallway for 45 mins.

probaly not handled the best way
I would have said breezily
"well it's up to you, you can leave your shoes on but you won't be able to play. You will have to sit there until you do take them off"
I would have found somewhere for him to sit, probably on a chair near the door way, where he can see what is going on in the room.
I expect that he would sit there for a bit and then decide to take his shoes off and join in the play. if he can't manage his own shoes, and many 2 year olds can't, then I would keep asking him every few minutes if he was ready to came and join in the play. Eventually, he will realise he is missing out.
But, it is easier to say what you would have done than to deal with it in the moment of it.
The one thing I would not have done is to let him keep his shoes on.

Yes I agree he is trying to communicate something. That's why I wonder if something else is bothering him. And it is never a good idea to battle with toddlers if you can avoid it. If your son was my own child I would simply take his shoes off, and all the time be explaining why.
You need to find out why she doesn't simply take his shoes off for him?
Might be a good reason eg he fights back. Or maybe she expects him to do it himself. He is still little and although good to encourage him to do this a little help doesn't hurt.