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Original poster

Holiday pay for CM when on long-term sick?

39 replies

NumptyNu · 18/12/2013 21:41

Should CMs expect to receive 'holiday pay' for Xmas if they are currently 'out of action', and have been so for several months, and may be so for another couple of months?

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Blondeshavemorefun · 20/12/2013 19:51

No probs numpty :)

Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 19:45

Understood. Thanks so much. Time to double check everything I think!

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Blondeshavemorefun · 20/12/2013 19:06

Just don't want you to get into trouble op :)

Just be careful - some nannies say they are se and aren't and it would b you who gets Into trouble if anyone ever found out

Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 18:22

Hi blonde, I'm just going by how hmrc classed it when we gave them all the details. As I said earlier, I can't post all the details here for obvious reasons. Thanks all so much for your input though, it's been really helpful.

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OutragedFromLeeds · 20/12/2013 17:44

I think it's quite difficult to judge the fairness without the technicalities.

If she was a childminder, as other posters have said, she would be outrageously cheeky to ask for holiday pay.

If she was an (employed) nanny it would be her legal right to either carry the holiday over or be paid.

You can see why the technicalities matter!

Blondeshavemorefun · 20/12/2013 17:22

Why complicated?

She looks after your children in your house - has done for a while - makes her a perm nanny - which legally makes you her employer

Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 17:07

Hi outraged, yes, we looked into the 'nanny status or not' when checking the hmrc situation, and it was complicated, but she fell into the category that needed to do their own tax etc, and is hence 'self-employed' for tax purposes.

I think we're getting too technical perhaps (although I'm very grateful that you've all highlighted some of these technicalities). It was a feel for the 'fairness' issue that I was after. We have a very relaxed arrangement, and I have no intention of antagonizing her to the point at which she wants to take us to court! I probably need to have a conversation with her and get things agreed and clear for the future, and explain that I wasn't anticipating paying while we were effectively (but yes, unofficially) out of contract. I'm sure we'll come to an agreement.

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WoodBurnerBabe · 20/12/2013 15:49

It sounds like you've been paying her holiday pay though? Has she accrued enough to take time off at Christmas? If you've been paying her accrued leave each month surely there is nothing owed apart from the December accrued leave?

OutragedFromLeeds · 20/12/2013 14:50

New ruling that the long-term sick can carry forward holiday automatically

That's about employees though, which she isn't, but probably should be.

Blondeshavemorefun · 20/12/2013 14:50

Oic. Sorry thought you meant she had your kids at hers the other days

Then she is def a nanny while working for you and you need to employ her / as and when she comes back

You as the family/employer would be liable to the tax office for tax evasion and you could be fined up to £3k and possible prison sentence - regardless if you said you paid her gross and she is sorting it out iyswim

While this person has been off have you got someone else in your home looking after your children?

If so they need to be employed by yourself

NatashaBee · 20/12/2013 14:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OutragedFromLeeds · 20/12/2013 14:44

Confused but when she works for you she's a nanny!! That's kind of a relevant detail. Nannies who work regular hours for the same family cannot be self-employed. It's you that is liable for the fine from HMRC, not her.

If she was a plumber the other 3 days, would the thread title be 'Holiday pay for plumber when on long-term sick?'? Of course not! What she does the other three days is irrelevant. She works for you as a NANNY. And should probably be employed.

Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 14:29

And that's why I use the term CM, because thats mainly what she is. She is 3/5 CM and 2/5 nanny.

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Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 14:27

Hi there, we don't 'do both', only she does. She does 2 days our kids our home, and 3 days other children and her home (ie nothing to do with our kids).

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Blondeshavemorefun · 20/12/2013 13:20

If she works at your home then For those days she isn't a cm and shouldn't be self employed

She is a nanny

You can get se nannies / I'm one of them - but that's coz I often work nights as a night nanny/mat nurse and do emergency temping so flit from family to family for anything from a day to a week or few weeks

Anything longer and they need to employ me

Obv not worth employing a nanny for one day - hence why I can be se as a temporary arrangement

Yours is a perm job so legally she can't be self employed iyswim

Also why do both - as in care in your home and hers?

DeepThought · 20/12/2013 08:23

No, no, we understand

For purposes of clarity the person is not a childminder if the care takes place at your home

Truly self employed nannies are incredibly rare so I really think you need to terminate thecontract.

Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 08:11

Apologies, I don't want to give too many details away for ID purposes.

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Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 08:10

No we haven't been paying while she has been off. Just a bit of holiday pay that had accrued.

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Original poster
NumptyNu · 20/12/2013 08:09

At our house, but only on the day or two with our kids. On other three days she has kids at hers.

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DeepThought · 19/12/2013 22:48

does she normally work from her own home or does the care take place at your house?

Blondeshavemorefun · 19/12/2013 22:40

Have you been paying her for the last 6mths/since she has been off

And no to holiday pay / but maybe a nice pressie

Self employed people don't normally get paid if they don't work ie ill or holiday / but obv depends what you both agree to via a contract

shoom · 19/12/2013 22:37

Give notice and reassess things if and when she returns to childminding.

Pay the holidays only if contractually obliged to do so. Ditto for her sickness absence. She's not an employee, so are you sure you need to pay her while she's not offering you her childminding services?

What are her other clients doing? Or have they all given notice already?

Tbh, if you're willing to pay approx 6 months fee for a service you're not getting, I'm not surprised she's asking for holiday pay too.

Surely the holiday pay is a red herring?

Original poster
NumptyNu · 19/12/2013 22:36

She is self employed. The contract is basic. And you're right, I don't want to upset her, as she has been a reliable worker, but something is just bugging me about this.

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ReallyTired · 19/12/2013 22:34

No I don't think you should give her holiday pay. She hasn't worked for you for six months. Childminders are self employed and can't demand money for no work. Even the most generous public sector employer would not give any pay after 6 months.

I think you should refuse to pay her any xmas money and terminate. She can take you to the small claims court, but she would be just laughed at. If she refused to return a deposit to you then I am sure that the small claims court would be sympathetic to you.

Shente · 19/12/2013 22:33

Is this actually a nanny then rather than a cm? It sounds like you employ her and wrote the contract rather than the other way round. Perhaps worth getting some legal advice if that is the case as you may have some duty of care towards her if she is an employee.