Do childminders normally ask for holiday pay?

"- If childminders want to be treated as professionals they should operate in a professional manner, and demanding payment for offering no service is simply not professional."

What a patronising statement!

I am full of admiration for the CM we had in London, she's one of the most professional people I've ever met! She had incredibly high professional standards for her work, and she creating a wonderful, creative, fun, educational environment for the children. She was rated Ofsted outstanding and it was obvious why when you met her.

She chose to charge for holidays. That was her business model and up to her to decide.

Hi, I operate my childcare service just as ginger describes, it may have even been my website she is referring too!
I have six weeks holiday out of the year, use to be four but it wasn't enough for me working 55 hours a week and having two young children so as a self employed person I choose to make that decision and increase it to six. Parents are informed at the beginning of the year when my holiday will be which is usually in the summer and over the Xmas period so those bank holidays are part of my leave.
Parents have respectively taken their annual holiday from work around the same time as me or they have had extended family members to help out. Those without the extended family have I guess not used my service or could accommodate my holiday with theirs.
With regards to payments, my single parents would be claiming tax credits so they where receiving help with childcare cost throughout the year for every contracted day, and those who claim childcare vouchers were receiving up to £240 a month tax free!
I give a free 2 weeks settling in period, no deposits are requested only a registration fee at the start of settling in a child.
My daily fee does include my holiday at 50%, nappies & wipes and meals throughout the day.
Other childminders local to me I think charge a extra £1.50 an hour or £10.00 per day more than me without nappies & wipes and some without meals.
Parents are directed to my website where they are given not only the terms and conditions but also an introduction to the care and the carers, My service is based on what I can provide as a childminder, it has changed over the years as every family is different with different expectations and attitudes towards childcare.
I don't plan to make any parent who disagrees with my service or causes some conflict to stop me from childminding, it only makes me stronger!
If parents don't like what they see they have the choice to look else where. :)

Yes mr a always respected your posts, and still do, u went mad for a while but dont we all!!

My childminder charges half fees when she is closed for holidays, of up to 5 weeks a year. We can pay half fees when we are on holiday up to 5 weeks too.

However, she also charges a lower hourly rate than most of the other childminders in the area.

All in all, I'm happy for the CM to take holiday, and I'm happy to pay for it.

Argh! It's not your problem with holiday pay that I take issue with.

It's tarring us all with the same brush that gets on my wick!

Childminders are greedy, unprofessional, blah blah blah!

CMs (and others)can we please accept that MrAi is entitled to his opinion and has given us all sorts of fantastic help in the past.

We are self employed and entitled to set our own terms and conditions and whether they are good or bad or reflective of our practice will tell in our profits and references.

I'm not saying anything is illegal (yes I did get carried away and make a statement which I retracted the same day, for which I apologise again). I do think that it is unprofessional for nurseries to charge for days they are not open, although in many cases this is just for two or three training days a year so the impact on parents is much less significant - and I have never heard of a nursery charge for six weeks holiday.

Here are the statements and opinions I have posted: which of these causes you offence?

• If it is the case that most or all childminders in an area operate a practice that is potentially unfair to parents then it can hardly be said that the parents have a choice; they have to pay up and put up or make other arrangements for childcare.

• If childminders want to be treated as professionals they should operate in a professional manner, and demanding payment for offering no service is simply not professional.

• Childminders in general are sometimes perceived as operating in a way that their customers believe is unfair.

• In order to present childminding in the best possible light as a caring, but professional, service the practice of charging for that service on days when you are not available to provide it should stop.

Our CM in London charged for 4 weeks holiday, at her standard rate (£10 an hour).

If I heard that from another person I'd be but she was so amazingly committed (Ofsted outstanding rated) I was very happy for her to have paid holiday as DS got so much out of going there.

Our new CM, out of London charges £4. She charges 50% for holidays, but I've never known her to take more than a week a year!

I wish she would, she's lovely and a great CM and I think she deserves a break!

I wouldn't pay someone who wasn't available to work.

I would pay 100% rates to someone who was available to work but I chose not to use on those days, or if my child was sick so unable to go to the CM. They are available to work so should not be out of pocket because my child is not there.

Sorry for all typos - fat fingers on phone!

I'm not saying they should charge- but I also realise it's nit my business of they do.

What I am trying to defend is the fact that such sweeping statements and opinions are being made about childminders, whether they go or do not work in this way.

I know many nurseries which charge for time not used, such as bank hols, week at Xmas, staff training days etc. Are you saying that's illegal too or is that different because a nursery isn't one SE person? Genuine question.

And how many have you read that say they don't charge?

This is what surprises me - how is it that childminders who do not operate this unfair practice defend so passionately the right of others to do so, when they can clearly see from the reaction of parents on this thread and elsewhere how badly it reflects on the whole profession?

*accountants

And how many have you read that say they don't charge?

It seems your just shit stirring to me.

I don't go around complaining about the extortionate prices accounts charge (and they all charge the same around here so I will assume they are illegally price fixing to rob me blind), I just choose not to use them. The same right every parent has not to use a childminder. Noone is holding a gun to your head and making you use a childminder! Just choose other childcare if you don't like us!

Evidence that in some areas it is normal practice for childminders to charge parents while their service is unavailable because the childminder is on holiday? Just on this thread...

mopbucket Tue 07-Feb-12 16:54:00
I take 23 days a yr off and charge half fees to parents, its normal practice near me

ifeelloved Wed 08-Feb-12 08:09:52
Unfortunately it does seem to be normal practice.

thebody Wed 08-Feb-12 13:13:41
I am self employed and do t charge for my holiday either. If however I worked in an area where this was normal practise,I've some cms do then I would charge the market rate and get paid holidays!

I don't have any evidence that childminders meet to agree how much they should charge, and I have never said that they do.

registered cms are small business owners who expect decent wages, and annual leave like the rest if the population.
Wages and annual leave come with a job. When you become self employed you trade those for the opportunity to work as hard as you can and to keep the rewards for yourself.

Those that know me (online) will know that I am hugely supportive of childminders both individually and as a group, but I do believe very strongly that in order to present childminding in the best possible light as a caring, but professional, service the practice of charging for that service on days when you are not available to provide it should stop.

I think some parents see cms as a cheaper child care option and get a shock when they actually realise that registered cms are small business owners who expect decent wages, and annual leave like the rest if the population.

Surely 'price-fixing' wouldn't work anyway, as we all offer such different services?! Different hours, school pick-ups? after schoolies/just little ones, own children to consider? term-time only? day/hourly rate? include nappies/food/snacks/outings? etc etc etc.

Its worth remembering that as a CMer, parents' holidays don't actually mean you get time off - unless you only have 1 child to mind, so it can be tiring and unrelenting!

Also, if parents work a 'typical' 9-5 that means that we're probably working 8-6 - and often parents with different working hours mean CMers often work 12 hour days - often without breaks if mindees don't nap/their naps don't coincide.

I know of a local CMer who effectively takes 7 weeks leave - 2 weeks unpaid and 5 weeks half pay. She says she needs that time off to be with her (young) children and she always returns refreshed and positive after her leave - so it makes her a better CMer! She is a fab (and popular/oversubscribed) CMer, and surely its better to have a happy and rested CMer than a stressed, exhausted one who can't afford to take any leave!

OP - if 6 weeks holiday (or 3 weeks paid holiday, as its only half-pay for her holidays) may seem like a lot - how much will you/your DP get? I'd be asking the CMer how much notice you get of her holidays - if plenty of notice then its not a problem, just arrange your leave to coincide with hers. It may well be she has 2 weeks at Easter, Summer, Xmas when you'd take leave anyway.

Service providers have different t&c's, for their own personal reasons... different strokes for different folks. What works for one does not work for another. This is the same in ALL service provider industries.

If you disagree with a t&c then do not sign up. Simple.

Mr anchovy, I can't see you have any evidence at all for your remarks. I actually have no idea how much most of the cms charge in my local group and can honestly say I have no idea of their policies on holiday pay.

I would feel rude asking as its each others private business.
I do admit to warning another cm about a bad paying parent but feel that's
legitimate.

Most of our conversations centre around improving the toys in the centre, fund raising, eyfs and bloody ofsted.

Mranchovy I agree that some customers find some CMs terms and conditions unfair. Some people think my daily rate is unfair. But this is the same with most self employed businesses. I think it is unfair to be charged a call out fee for an engineer, if he just looks at my appliance, scratches his chin and says he can't fix it! That's life and we browse around to find the best fit for our needs.

Well said Tanith

So I feel it's grossly unfair, even libellous, to accuse childminding groups of acting illegally.
I agree that it was unfair and wrong of me to do that (although I do not agree that it was libellous) and I have already retracted that remark in an earlier message.

However I stand by my remark that (whatever the cause), if it is the case that most or all childminders in an area operate a practice that is potentially unfair to parents then it can hardly be said that the parents have a choice; they have to pay up and put up or make other arrangements for childcare.

Tanith that has to b the most sensible reasonable and fair and funny post I have ever read in mumsnet.

Mr anchovy, I really don't understand ur posts, my local cm group had difficulty agreeing our Christmas do venue? Let alone a cartel of pricing!

Did u write screen Play for tinker Taylor , if so that's y no one understood it!!!

So it seems that childminders in general are sometimes perceived as operating in a way that their customers believe is unfair.

Do any childminders think this is a problem?

I often hear on messageboards about these so-called price fixers who all meet up together and agree to charge the exactly same fees to poor, ripped off parents.

Every time I've probed a little further, it transpires that this is just someone's impression. In one case, it turned out to be a childminding Network that never even arranged fees: it was just a parent who failed to understand what a Network really was. The same goes for real life: I've never known childminders to get together and fix their fees. It's an effort to get them all together at the group meetings at all. In all the years I've been a committee member, I can confirm that fixing of fees has never formed any part of our agendas. The most we ever get is a new childminder tentatively asking how much we charge and - get this! - they're all different.
Nor have I ever attended a childminding support group or Network that ever dictated or agreed on how fees should be charged.

So I feel it's grossly unfair, even libellous, to accuse childminding groups of acting illegally. Saying that childminding groups have the opportunity to do it is no proof at all. No doubt they also have the opportunity to arrange an armed bank robbery or set up their very own male escort service (that'll get you all to the next meeting, won't it?! ). My neighbour left his keys in his car the other day and I had the opportunity to nick his car - it doesn't make me a joyrider.

Childminders are self-employed. They set fees and rates according to their own businesses. They're in the unusual position of providing a service for several clients simultaneously, therefore the holiday situation isn't as straightforward as for other self-employed professions. It's entirely up to them whether they charge full fee, part-fee or no fee and whether or not they offer other concessions. It's up to the parents to sign up for this service if they want it. Some parents do prefer to pay up front for the holidays rather than have it hidden away in a higher hourly rate. They see this as fairer.

If we all charge exactly the same way, it takes away choice for parents. I imagine that's why the NCMA has changed its stance because not even the NCMA has a right to influence our charging policies as individuals.

G1nger, there isn't a normal rate or policy for holidays. We're all different so you can theoretically pick the best deal for your situation. If you're not happy, you need to keep looking.